Coulée de Serrant down the drain

O

Oswaldo Costa

Oswaldo Costa
2001 Nicolas Joly Savennières Clos de la Coulée du Serrant 13.5%
Poured into decanter for four hours, initial oxidative smell gives way to honey and propolis. Served at slightly over the recommended 15C degrees, tasted too oxidized to give pleasure, so back into an unstoppered bottle for an overnighter, hoping it’s merely oxidative.

Poured the following evening, it had begun to turn to vinegar. I am angry. These motherfuckers measure something like 62 mg/l at bottling (according to venier.it), but this one couldn't keep its shit together. Though the cork didn't look very high quality. Biodynamics seems to stray from the righteous natural path in their esteem for sulfur, yet no good did it do me here.

From The Wine Doctor:
Each time the wine is racked a little sulphur, apparently a "form of light", is added, around 2 grams. The end result is a wine endowed with all the forces of mysticism, but perhaps also a handsome dose of oxygen and a very low level of free sulphur, which is lightly fined and bottled, ready for discerning customers, distributed complete with instruction sheets for enjoying Joly's wine (including how to differentiate between oxidation and maturity).

My opinion on the 2001 Coulée de Serrant was that it was a very good wine, and tasting it at just two years it did not show any sign of oxidation, but more recent published opinions from others suggest gross oxidation.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
oxidized ... merely oxidative.
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Could you elaborate a bit on this distinction?
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I gather from past comments that you're not convinced of this distinction. But, even unconvinced, you're better equipped to answer your own question, so it is I who should be asking you.

In any case, the oxidative would be a spectrum that goes from the whites of many natural practitioners (e.g. Richard Leroy, Mark Angeli, Chassorney), to several oxidative Jura chards and savagnins, and, at the extreme, vin jaune or sherry. This is a "legitimate" vinous category, and the flavor is not deemed a fault, though many don't like it. In my meager molecular understanding, this state is the opposite of oxidized, i.e., reduced.

The oxidised is simply what is spoiled by excessive exposure to oxygen, and tastes indefensibly awful. I imagine that a wine bottled in an oxidative state can gradually become oxidised if its cork lets air in.

Tastewise, I am not confident that I can distinguish a lightly oxidized wine from a lightly oxidative wine, but as the two sensations increase, they divide more and more clearly between the drinkable and the undrinkable.
 
Thanks, Oswaldo.

I would separate that spectrum on at least a couple of axes, or a couple of blobs in the Venn diagram, or a couple of categories or what have you.

First of all, none of those wines are reduced. Reduced wines smell of sulfides, of thiols, of rotten eggs and cabbages and rubber. Or they hint at that direction but are nonetheless glorious, say a young Paris Geynale of my recent experience.

I would distinguish chemically between biologically oxidized wines like sous (where is that bridge, Mark?) voile Jura or Sherry, and others. The yeast in the voile accelerates some reactions and diverts others and gives a different mix of flavors, and I put them in a whole different category, although they may of course share some flavors with chemically oxidized wines, or those who have suffered biochemical oxidation of the bacterial sort (Acetobacter, say).

Madeira is a whole different bucket, let's leave it out. Though if someone can sometime explain to me why something so thoroughly oxidized benefits from days of decanting, I would be grateful.

So then, in my mind, we get down to wines with flavors that are away from free thiols and towards acetaldehyde, acetate, that sort of thing. Or by much more subtle shifts in redox-active flavor components. You can get to the outer edge of that by deliberate choices, and by fucking up. The latter is easy--you don't top your barrels when you should, you get Acetobacter, you make a little vinegar. There are people who like the unwashed authenticity of this sort of wine, but I find myself less and less often in their company.

But you can also make choices during winemaking that tilt you a bit more one way than the other. You don't totally whack the wine with 100 mg of SO2 at bottling. You rack that Syrah when it gets stinky. Maybe those lees have got to go. Your elevage is in fiberglass, or smaller wood.

And that can be fine--taste post-2002 Closel vs. the old regime. The old wines had a lot of sulfur, needed a lot of time, and were great when they had aged. Or the '46 Huets of recent memory--plenty of SO2 in those puppies. But 2010 Jalousie is much more open and has a lot more fruit than the 2001 ever did in its youth, partly from more (but not to my taste too) oxidative elevage, and partly to lower SO2. It is certainly a good thing if you mean to drink it soon.

Anyhow, I run on. There was a time a few years ago when one used to encounter hipsters at wine fairs talking about how their wine was "oxidative" but not "oxidized," and that in fact it's being "oxidative" prevented! oxidation!

They were never happy to hear my analogy that their wine was saved from oxidation in the same sense that you can't burn ashes.

But there you go.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:

I would distinguish chemically between biologically oxidized wines like sous (where is that bridge, Mark?) voile Jura or Sherry, and others. The yeast in the voile accelerates some reactions and diverts others and gives a different mix of flavors, and I put them in a whole different category, although they may of course share some flavors with chemically oxidized wines, or those who have suffered biochemical oxidation of the bacterial sort (Acetobacter, say).
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Why wouldn't you just refer to those wines, and I'd include many Savennieres in that category, as oxidative in style? To me oxidized denotes a wine of age where the chemical reaction has happened over some period of time whereas oxidative denotes a deliberate style with an oxidized flavor profile.
 
originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by SFJoe:

I would distinguish chemically between biologically oxidized wines like sous (where is that bridge, Mark?) voile Jura or Sherry, and others. The yeast in the voile accelerates some reactions and diverts others and gives a different mix of flavors, and I put them in a whole different category, although they may of course share some flavors with chemically oxidized wines, or those who have suffered biochemical oxidation of the bacterial sort (Acetobacter, say).
Click to expand...

Why wouldn't you just refer to those wines, and I'd include many Savennieres in that category, as oxidative in style? To me oxidized denotes a wine of age where the chemical reaction has happened over some period of time whereas oxidative denotes a deliberate style with an oxidized flavor profile.
Click to expand...
So to you "oxidized" is slow, and "oxidative" happens at bottling, but get to the same place?
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by SFJoe:

I would distinguish chemically between biologically oxidized wines like sous (where is that bridge, Mark?) voile Jura or Sherry, and others. The yeast in the voile accelerates some reactions and diverts others and gives a different mix of flavors, and I put them in a whole different category, although they may of course share some flavors with chemically oxidized wines, or those who have suffered biochemical oxidation of the bacterial sort (Acetobacter, say).
Click to expand...

Why wouldn't you just refer to those wines, and I'd include many Savennieres in that category, as oxidative in style? To me oxidized denotes a wine of age where the chemical reaction has happened over some period of time whereas oxidative denotes a deliberate style with an oxidized flavor profile.
Click to expand...
So to you "oxidized" is slow, and "oxidative" happens at bottling, but get to the same place?
Click to expand...

That's how I like to simplify it. Who has time for all the scientific mumbo jumbo?
 
originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by SFJoe:

I would distinguish chemically between biologically oxidized wines like sous (where is that bridge, Mark?) voile Jura or Sherry, and others. The yeast in the voile accelerates some reactions and diverts others and gives a different mix of flavors, and I put them in a whole different category, although they may of course share some flavors with chemically oxidized wines, or those who have suffered biochemical oxidation of the bacterial sort (Acetobacter, say).
Click to expand...

Why wouldn't you just refer to those wines, and I'd include many Savennieres in that category, as oxidative in style? To me oxidized denotes a wine of age where the chemical reaction has happened over some period of time whereas oxidative denotes a deliberate style with an oxidized flavor profile.
Click to expand...
So to you "oxidized" is slow, and "oxidative" happens at bottling, but get to the same place?
Click to expand...

That's how I like to simplify it. Who has time for all the scientific mumbo jumbo?
Click to expand...

And then premox is oxidativized?
 
originally posted by Brad Kane:

That's how I like to simplify it. Who has time for all the scientific mumbo jumbo?
Click to expand...
Well, I guess it depends on whether you want it to make sense or not.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Brad Kane:

That's how I like to simplify it. Who has time for all the scientific mumbo jumbo?
Click to expand...
Well, I guess it depends on whether you want it to make sense or not.
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So, Joe, you would disagree with this statement? "Too much oxygen during winemaking (or bottle aging) and a wine becomes oxidized, a flaw; just enough and it is oxidative, a sort of nutty character that people generally love or hate."
 
originally posted by SFJoe:

Madeira is a whole different bucket, let's leave it out. Though if someone can sometime explain to me why something so thoroughly oxidized benefits from days of decanting, I would be grateful.
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but is this not related to numerous experiences with wines which **appear** oxidized, but recover beautifully after extended exposure ?

You and I have shared more than one older white burgundy that did this.

(1) I do recognize that what is found on the palate upon uncorking is often a good indicator of where the wine might be going, if one is paying attention.

(2) The fact that I can be either partially or completely ignorant of the *type* of oxidative aromas goes without saying, which is why I often rely on (1)
 
originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Brad Kane:

That's how I like to simplify it. Who has time for all the scientific mumbo jumbo?
Click to expand...
Well, I guess it depends on whether you want it to make sense or not.
Click to expand...

So, Joe, you would disagree with this statement? "Too much oxygen during winemaking (or bottle aging) and a wine becomes oxidized, a flaw; just enough and it is oxidative, a sort of nutty character that people generally love or hate."
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It's three or four statements.

This bit is a tautology:
"Too much oxygen during winemaking (or bottle aging) and a wine becomes oxidized, a flaw; (too much=flaw).

"just enough...and people might like it" also tautological.

"nutty" might apply to biological oxidation of sherry or Jura, but I have a hard time thinking of "nutty" young Cornas or Muscadet or Wachau riesling that I would find appealing.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Brad Kane:

That's how I like to simplify it. Who has time for all the scientific mumbo jumbo?
Click to expand...
Well, I guess it depends on whether you want it to make sense or not.
Click to expand...

So, Joe, you would disagree with this statement? "Too much oxygen during winemaking (or bottle aging) and a wine becomes oxidized, a flaw; just enough and it is oxidative, a sort of nutty character that people generally love or hate."
Click to expand...

It's three or four statements.

This bit is a tautology:
"Too much oxygen during winemaking (or bottle aging) and a wine becomes oxidized, a flaw; (too much=flaw).

"just enough...and people might like it" also tautological.

"nutty" might apply to biological oxidation of sherry or Jura, but I have a hard time thinking of "nutty" young Cornas or Muscadet or Wachau riesling that I would find appealing.
Click to expand...

Well, it was Dr. Vino's attempt to explain the difference between oxidized and oxidative wine.

You may talk chemistry all you like, but, rightly or wrongly, and there are plenty of usages out there that are wrong, but have become accepted by the majority, I would argue that what's largely become vernacular is that oxidative wines are wines where there has been a deliberate attempt by the maker to introduce oxygen during the wine making process to bring on an oxidized-like profile.
 
originally posted by Brad Kane:
oxidative wines are wines where there has been a deliberate attempt by the maker to introduce oxygen during the wine making process to bring on an oxidized-like profile.
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Like Pinot Noir in Burgundy barrels?

Or like Palo Cortado?

Different oxidations, different outcomes, and it might be worth distinguishing among them.

Or not, as you like.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Brad Kane:
rightly or wrongly, and there are plenty of usages out there that are wrong, but have become accepted by the majority,
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No doubt.
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Irregardless, it seems you could care less. Which begs the question: are you going to literally explode with rage if these usages don't jive?
 
You know, on re-reading, I think we might be agreeing and I might've mis-understood what you said. I should get Lisa to translate.

With regard to to the original note on the '01 Coulee, Oswaldo, am I correct in assuming that you were thinking that oxidative aromas blow off, as would reductive aromas?
 
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