Coulée de Serrant down the drain

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by SFJoe:
First of all, none of those wines are reduced. Reduced wines smell of sulfides, of thiols, of rotten eggs and cabbages and rubber. Or they hint at that direction but are nonetheless glorious, say a young Paris Geynale of my recent experience.

I almost wrote in my response that even though I understand the oxidative state to be a reductive state, the reduction of the oxidative state has nothing to do, aromatically, with the smells we call reductive. But I thought that would be too digressive. And there you go starting your response like this!

Thanks for the rest, though, the understanding of which will require the application of whatever neurons remain unoxidised. But I don't think you addressed the point about oxidative being a reduced state (unless that was it above). Where I got this I don't recall; I think it was in a previous thread here. Will have to use the search function. Maybe it was Mark who said it?

Brad, though I have no problem (anymore) with mild oxidativeness, there is so much blog fare out there saying to decant CdS for a full day or two that, yes, I thought it that aroma would become less intense with aeration, since a reductive state will supposedly clear with oxygen. But it was already oxidised, so aeration only made it worse.

Richard Leroy says his wines sometimes smell oxidative on opening, and lose that after a few ours (or a day) in a decanter. He fully believes in the oxidative/oxidised difference. SFJoe has naysaid that in a previous thread, in the manner described above, rendering me in two. Alas, to my meager understanding, it makes perfect sense that a reductive state would protect a wine from oxidation simply because exposure to oxygen would be absorbed in the transition from oxidative to "normal" before it can actually start damaging the wine.

 

[Brad Kane]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

Brad, though I have no problem (anymore) with mild oxidativeness, there is so much blog fare out there saying to decant CdS for a full day or two that, yes, I thought it that aroma would become less intense with aeration, since a reductive state will supposedly clear with oxygen. But it was already oxidised, so aeration only made it worse.

Ok. This is where I was having a disconnect as Coulee de Serrant is made in an oxidative style, so those aromas wouldn't blow off. That's not to say that in addition to being oxidative, that bottle wasn't also oxidized.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

Well, Richard Leroy claims that the light oxidativeness of his wines blows off with aeration, and friends who have opened his wines have confirmed this, so why wouldn't the oxidativeness of CdS blow off too, if it is indeed a reductive state? The recent ones I've tried (2004, 2005, 2006) were either not at all or very lghtly oxidative.

 

[John Roberts]

It's oxidative until it is poured down the drain, at which point it is oxidized.

 

[Zachary Ross]

I've dated the ox, but now it's been gored.

 

[Sharon Bowman]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
...even though I understand the oxidative state to be a reductive state...

I think the previous discussion hasn't been clear enough on this.

Oxidative is the opposite of reductive.

Your phrase, if translated into imaged language, would say, "even though I understand right-handedness to be left-handedness..."

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Chris Coad:

originally posted by SFJoe:

originally posted by Brad Kane:
rightly or wrongly, and there are plenty of usages out there that are wrong, but have become accepted by the majority,

No doubt.

Irregardless, it seems you could care less. Which begs the question: are you going to literally explode with rage if these usages don't jive?

Tense Present.

Mark Lipton

 

[Yule Kim]

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Chris Coad:

originally posted by SFJoe:

originally posted by Brad Kane:
rightly or wrongly, and there are plenty of usages out there that are wrong, but have become accepted by the majority,

No doubt.

Irregardless, it seems you could care less. Which begs the question: are you going to literally explode with rage if these usages don't jive?

Tense Present.

Mark Lipton

That's a great essay. I spent an entire date talking about the difference between Webster's Third and the American Heritage. She was totally charmed.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Sharon Bowman:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
...even though I understand the oxidative state to be a reductive state...

I think the previous discussion hasn't been clear enough on this.

Oxidative is the opposite of reductive.

Your phrase, if translated into imaged language, would say, "even though I understand right-handedness to be left-handedness..."

Oxidised is the opposite, not oxidative. The distinction between oxidative and oxidised rests on the former being oxygen deprived and the latter being oxygen rich. Will look for my source.

 

[SFJoe]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
to my meager understanding, it makes perfect sense that a reductive state would protect a wine from oxidation simply because exposure to oxygen would be absorbed in the transition from oxidative to "normal" before it can actually start damaging the wine.

Mine, too, as a general state.

But I think there are also superficial overlays. Just a little contradictory chemistry on top. Those things can move fast. I think SO2 at bottling can affect them a lot in young wines. And then the totally mysterious--I was in the cellar one day and a guy dropped a mag of aged Beychevelle. It broke up in the high shoulder. I forget the vintage, maybe a '66? Anyhow, it was severely closed and filled with broken glass and the guy couldn't carry it home anyway. So I made the cellar guys go upstairs and buy a fine chinois. We filtered out the broken glass and an hour later it was totally singing.

So why does a veneer of reduction mask all this beautiful fruit? How does a 50 y.o. wine get reduced?

I don't want to pretend that all of this is as simple as the redox equilibria my niece was studying last year in college. Wine is a complicated mixture, far from equilibrium (unless it's moribund, of course).

Sorry, have had this on my neglected browser for hours, will post it and consider again when I have a moment.

 

[SFJoe]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

Oxidised is the opposite, not oxidative. The distinction between oxidative and oxidised rests on the former being oxygen deprived and the latter being oxygen rich. Will look for my source.

This would be an unusually eccentric usage. Maybe it obtains in the rural lower Anjou.

 

[Zachary Ross]

Isn't it (for wine):

Oxidative - in the presence of oxygen

Reductive - not in the presence of oxygen

Oxidized - having undergone a reaction with oxygen

 

[SFJoe]

originally posted by Zachary Ross:
Isn't it (for wine):

Oxidative - in the presence of oxygen

Oxidized - having undergone a reaction with oxygen

The big question would be how long it takes to get from the one to the other. In most cases it isn't very long.

 

[slaton]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Well, Richard Leroy claims that the light oxidativeness of his wines blows off with aeration, and friends who have opened his wines have confirmed this, so why wouldn't the oxidativeness of CdS blow off too, if it is indeed a reductive state? The recent ones I've tried (2004, 2005, 2006) were either not at all or very lghtly oxidative.

I always assumed this was kind of like people saying that brett "blows off".
It's not like 4-eg and 4-ep magically go away because the wine is exposed to air. But rather, following removal of cork and influx of oxygen, other aromatic compounds are produced in sufficient quantity that (sometimes) you can can't pick out the brett aromas anymore. Due to the proliferation of other smellies, as Coad would say.

 

[Brad Kane]

Just going by dictionary definitions, Zach has it right. Oswaldo, I don't get how you think oxidative means oxygen deprived.

As oxidative means "taking place in the presence of oxygen," wouldn't that by default mean the chemical reaction leading to something being oxidized is taking place and then it's just a matter of personal threshold before something is "too oxidized," or not?

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Brad Kane:
As oxidative means "taking place in the presence of oxygen," wouldn't that by default mean the chemical reaction leading to something being oxidized is taking place and then it's just a matter of personal threshold before something is "too oxidized," or not?

The problem with "personal threshold" is that that is not something people can easily share. Hence, the desire for Science (with a capital S, thank you).

 

[SFJoe]

originally posted by Brad Kane:
Just going by dictionary definitions,

Brad, what are you about?

 

[SFJoe]

originally posted by SFJoe:

originally posted by Brad Kane:
Just going by dictionary definitions,

Brad, what are you about?

And I am happy to give my proxy to Professor Lipton if you would prefer a more authoritative source.

 

[Brad Kane]

originally posted by SFJoe:

originally posted by Brad Kane:
Just going by dictionary definitions,

Brad, what are you about?

What? The dictionary definition of oxidative is a whole lot easier to understand than when you say "I would distinguish chemically between biologically oxidized wines like sous (where is that bridge, Mark?) voile Jura or Sherry, and others. The yeast in the voile accelerates some reactions and diverts others and gives a different mix of flavors, and I put them in a whole different category, although they may of course share some flavors with chemically oxidized wines, or those who have suffered biochemical oxidation of the bacterial sort (Acetobacter, say)." and "So then, in my mind, we get down to wines with flavors that are away from free thiols and towards acetaldehyde, acetate, that sort of thing. Or by much more subtle shifts in redox-active flavor components. You can get to the outer edge of that by deliberate choices, and by fucking up. The latter is easy--you don't top your barrels when you should, you get Acetobacter, you make a little vinegar. There are people who like the unwashed authenticity of this sort of wine, but I find myself less and less often in their company. "

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by SFJoe:

originally posted by SFJoe:

originally posted by Brad Kane:
Just going by dictionary definitions,

Brad, what are you about?

And I am happy to give my proxy to Professor Lipton if you would prefer a more authoritative source.

You're doing fine on your own, old thing. Fight the good fight!

Mark Lipton