Coulée de Serrant down the drain

originally posted by Chris Coad:

Irregardless, it seems you could care less. Which begs the question: are you going to literally explode with rage if these usages don't jive?
nerd time: if you look at the frequency distribution of english adjectives, you see a cool interaction between relative frequency and whether the adjective is written or spoken. the realtive frequency of less common adjectives is far higher in written text.

what's more, across the whole language, the lower the frequency of a noun, the higher the probability is that it will be preceded by an adjective (or two). which means that, probabilistically, "surgeon" is way more likely to be preceded by an adjective than "man," even though it has a far 'more precise' meaning.

the not obvious (but likely correct) explanation for this is that adjectives don't work quite like we think they do, and that one of their main functions is to help make nouns more predictable (there are lots of nouns - and their number is constantly growing - so we need all the help we can get). needless to say, language that is more predictable is easier to understand, and unfortunately, along with the gold, the hot chicks and the sacred cows, the vikings also stole our gender system, which means we don't get all those little pointers that our germanic cousins enjoy.

this probably explains why, across the whole interweb, the nouns most likely to follow "cute little" are "puppy," "baby," and "kitten." it doesn't matter that every puppy, kitten and baby ever born is to some extent cute and little, because it turns out the way we use adjectives is more subtle than we suppose, which gets us to "literally."

if you look at the historical distribution of "literally", its growth starts around the time printing was invented, after which it really took off. and it is used far more in speech than text, most often to indicate that something less predictable is gonna happen. the kind of fancy shit that is more usually written than spoken, like, y'know, "literally exploded with rage."

predictability in speech and text are different (unless we're on the phone, speech is more liberallly laden with cues, making shit more predictable = less need for all the hand holding that low frequency adjectives provide in text). but, on the other hand, we can't go back and reread speech, we can only ask, "what?"

all of which means that it's highly likely that the 'correct' way of describing literary peavers is not to say that they are talking out of their asses, or that listening to them is analogous to watching a monkey licking its own balls, but that they are literally talking out of their asses, etc.

especially in speech.

fb.

ps. otherwise, kudos! great zinger.
 
OK, I found the likely source (a flor thread started by SFJoe himself, of course, in July of 2010) for my contention that oxidative is a reductive state. If it was a misinterpretation, it stuck with the force of revelation:

"To us, it's obvious that wine aging under a flor veil is not an oxidative process. In fact, the wine is in a reduced state."

I guess I shrugged the use of oxidative as a translation flaw, since we all call the aroma of flor/voile oxidative, and decided that such wines are merely extremes of an acceptable continuum, one that needed urgent and clear separation from its mongrel undrinkable vinegary oxidized brethren.

OK, some thots: flor/voile wines don't smell of sulfides, thiols, rotten eggs, cabbages and rubber, so not every reductive state smells like this, and there could be a separate category of reductive wines that taste and smell oxidative, but which are not actually oxidized.

If wines aged under flor/voile cannot be likened to wines that acquire similar tastes and aromas without the membrane, then obviously the distinction between oxidative and oxidized cannot rest on the former being a reductive state.

The Madeira puzzle mentioned by SFJoe could be evidence that oxidative stuff improves rather than degrades with oxygen, and would underpin the claim that it "prevents" oxidation, as hipster winemakers claim.

If the difference between oxidative and oxidized cannot be ascribed to reductive v. not reductive, it may well be as you suggest, Joe. In my words, you said that there are many different oxidation profiles because of yeasts and other components of wine whose interactions we still understand poorly, and some produce byproducts that we find unpleasant (acetaldehyde, acetate) and others produce stuff some of us like (nuttiness, etc.). The results could be as different as fatboy and Jonathan, but still be examples of gradual oxidation.

In sum, most agree that there is "acceptable" and "unacceptable" oxidation. If the distinction isn't categorical, then it must be a matter of components. But these components would have to explain why they react so differently to additional exposure to oxygen once the bottle is opened. The former often improving, or even vanishing entirely, the latter behaving like a sliced apple.
 
originally posted by fatboy:
originally posted by Chris Coad:

Irregardless, it seems you could care less. Which begs the question: are you going to literally explode with rage if these usages don't jive?
nerd time:

...

fb.

ps. otherwise, kudos! great zinger.

OMG that's hilarious!
 
Brad's distinction would work if everybody used it, even though SF Joe makes the case accurately that it would be an evaluative and not an ontological one. Evaluative distinctions work too.

At least according to the OED, however, it is not a dictionary definition. Here is the OED's first definition of oxidative, with references going from the 19th century to today:

Involving, relating to, or characterized by oxidation; that oxidizes.

It offers as its etymology "oxidate + suffix." And if one pursues to "oxidate" one finds the synonym to be "oxidize." Looking to "oxidized," it of course comes from "oxidize + suffix." Since both oxidative and oxidized are synonymic adjectives relating to the synonymic verbs oxidate and oxidize, the OED sides with Joe.
 
originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Brad Kane:
Just going by dictionary definitions,
Brad, what are you about?

What? The dictionary definition of oxidative is a whole lot easier to understand than when you say "I would distinguish chemically between biologically oxidized wines like sous (where is that bridge, Mark?) voile Jura or Sherry, and others. The yeast in the voile accelerates some reactions and diverts others and gives a different mix of flavors, and I put them in a whole different category, although they may of course share some flavors with chemically oxidized wines, or those who have suffered biochemical oxidation of the bacterial sort (Acetobacter, say)." and "So then, in my mind, we get down to wines with flavors that are away from free thiols and towards acetaldehyde, acetate, that sort of thing. Or by much more subtle shifts in redox-active flavor components. You can get to the outer edge of that by deliberate choices, and by fucking up. The latter is easy--you don't top your barrels when you should, you get Acetobacter, you make a little vinegar. There are people who like the unwashed authenticity of this sort of wine, but I find myself less and less often in their company. "

I agree. I am 96 points on the dictionary definition of oxidative!
 
originally posted by .sasha:
originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Brad Kane:
Just going by dictionary definitions,
Brad, what are you about?

What? The dictionary definition of oxidative is a whole lot easier to understand than when you say "I would distinguish chemically between biologically oxidized wines like sous (where is that bridge, Mark?) voile Jura or Sherry, and others. The yeast in the voile accelerates some reactions and diverts others and gives a different mix of flavors, and I put them in a whole different category, although they may of course share some flavors with chemically oxidized wines, or those who have suffered biochemical oxidation of the bacterial sort (Acetobacter, say)." and "So then, in my mind, we get down to wines with flavors that are away from free thiols and towards acetaldehyde, acetate, that sort of thing. Or by much more subtle shifts in redox-active flavor components. You can get to the outer edge of that by deliberate choices, and by fucking up. The latter is easy--you don't top your barrels when you should, you get Acetobacter, you make a little vinegar. There are people who like the unwashed authenticity of this sort of wine, but I find myself less and less often in their company. "

I agree. I am 96 points on the dictionary definition of oxidative!

KISS!
 
Oh, lordy.

Without redoing the lectures, here are a few to consider:

In general oxidation and reduction are opposites, that don't exist without the other. The yin and yang of electron flow, as it were. In simple systems an individual component is either oxidized or reduced, or perhaps is caught in some proportion of each.

As seen in the thread you cite, Oswaldo, biological systems with separate compartments are not simple. I tried to distinguish them in this way: "I would distinguish chemically between biologically oxidized wines like sous (where is that bridge, Mark?) voile Jura or Sherry, and others. The yeast in the voile accelerates some reactions and diverts others and gives a different mix of flavors, and I put them in a whole different category, although they may of course share some flavors with chemically oxidized wines, or those who have suffered biochemical oxidation of the bacterial sort (Acetobacter, say)."

The flavor from acetaldehyde (part of "rancio," sometimes perceived as green apples, latex paint, etc.) appears when ethanol is oxidized one step. If you in turn oxidize the acetaldehyde again, you get acetate, acetic acid, vinegar. So it is a stop on the way. If you keep going you get carbon dioxide in the end. Wines under flor have a complicated mix of oxidations and reductions. The oxidation is mostly of the alcohol and some other components at the surface of the voile. The wine in the bulk is in a more reduced state.

It's a different game than a simple chemical oxidation you would get from, say, long elevage in small cooperage. Or leaving the wine out overnight in a glass.

But you need some fancy dancing to get the mix of flavors in Sherry. Separated compartments with live stuff in between, say. Not a process that has anything to do with practices in the Anjou.

Sulfur dioxide is a reducing agent, for instance. A big whack of it will stop oxidation. Separately, it kills bugs dead, so a whack of it will stop microbes, too. Historical practices in the Loire often involved larger doses of SO2 than are currently fashionable, as a walk down memory lane with, say, Robert Denis or pre-1996 Closel, or modern Foreau, or Marc Ollivier's uncle will remind you. It was also common for reasons of weather and custom to pick earlier. For reasons that I will leave to the Khan Academy & Co. in the first instance, OTBE, more acidic solutions are harder to oxidize.

In the modern, warm world, with contributions from lower yields, more sun on the grapes, later picking, and so on, grapes often come in with less acid and higher pH. When you throw in a cultural aversion to SO2, the spectrum of many wines in hipster circles has shifted from reduction down the path to more oxidation. The wines are more yellow than pale. The fruit is more obvious early. You don't have to keep them for 30 years before they drink. They may not keep for 30 years, we don't know yet.

Anyhow, I have to get back to my day job.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Brad's distinction would work if everybody used it, even though SF Joe makes the case accurately that it would be an evaluative and not an ontological one. Evaluative distinctions work too.

At least according to the OED, however, it is not a dictionary definition. Here is the OED's first definition of oxidative, with references going from the 19th century to today:

Involving, relating to, or characterized by oxidation; that oxidizes.

It offers as its etymology "oxidate + suffix." And if one pursues to "oxidate" one finds the synonym to be "oxidize." Looking to "oxidized," it of course comes from "oxidize + suffix." Since both oxidative and oxidized are synonymic adjectives relating to the synonymic verbs oxidate and oxidize, the OED sides with Joe.
Thanks.

I would add that no one says "oxidate" itself except confused practitioners of back-formation.
 
Thanks, Joe. Henceforth I will use oxidative to refer to the pleasant, and oxidized to refer to the unpleasant, without seeking fundamental differences.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Brad's distinction would work if everybody used it, even though SF Joe makes the case accurately that it would be an evaluative and not an ontological one. Evaluative distinctions work too.

At least according to the OED, however, it is not a dictionary definition. Here is the OED's first definition of oxidative, with references going from the 19th century to today:

Involving, relating to, or characterized by oxidation; that oxidizes.

It offers as its etymology "oxidate + suffix." And if one pursues to "oxidate" one finds the synonym to be "oxidize." Looking to "oxidized," it of course comes from "oxidize + suffix." Since both oxidative and oxidized are synonymic adjectives relating to the synonymic verbs oxidate and oxidize, the OED sides with Joe.
Thanks.

I would add that no one says "oxidate" itself except confused practitioners of back-formation.

This seems partially true. The OED offers no version of the verb in the present tense after the 19th century. The past tense versions that do occur as late as the 1990s seem mostly adjectival. People did use the verb prior to the 20th century, though, so perhaps one should amend this to "no one says 'oxidate' anymore except..."
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Thanks, Joe. Henceforth I will use oxidative to refer to the pleasant, and oxidized to refer to the unpleasant, without seeking fundamental differences.

As mentioned above, with people having varying thresholds of tolerance for oxidized notes in wine, to me, oxidative is unpleasant and oxidized is dead.

I think Joe's comments here,

"Sulfur dioxide is a reducing agent, for instance. A big whack of it will stop oxidation. Separately, it kills bugs dead, so a whack of it will stop microbes, too. Historical practices in the Loire often involved larger doses of SO2 than are currently fashionable, as a walk down memory lane with, say, Robert Denis or pre-1996 Closel, or modern Foreau, or Marc Ollivier's uncle will remind you. It was also common for reasons of weather and custom to pick earlier. For reasons that I will leave to the Khan Academy & Co. in the first instance, OTBE, more acidic solutions are harder to oxidize.

In the modern, warm world, with contributions from lower yields, more sun on the grapes, later picking, and so on, grapes often come in with less acid and higher pH. When you throw in a cultural aversion to SO2, the spectrum of many wines in hipster circles has shifted from reduction down the path to more oxidation. The wines are more yellow than pale. The fruit is more obvious early. You don't have to keep them for 30 years before they drink. They may not keep for 30 years, we don't know yet."

are perhaps most informative as it explains why, to a number of us, wines we grew up loving and expect to behave a certain way, aren't anymore. I know I spoke to Joe about this and we differ in tastes, but I prefer the old Closel style, indeed my Chenin in general, that way. I'm not as fond of baked apple flavors and aromas as I am to quince and citrus. Additionally, imo, oxidized notes mask terroir. I'm used to a certain aging curve and look forward to checking in over years and seeing where a wine is at and expecting to see various levels of development. Now, with the later picking, lower acid levels and lower sulfur levels, you put your bottles away and blink and the wine you expected is gone.

Btw, Joe, did you try your '02 Le Mont Demi yet?
 
I've definitely been buying more Foreau over the last ten plus years and especially the past few in particular. Personally, I find the the D'Epire oxidative in style.
 
originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Thanks, Joe. Henceforth I will use oxidative to refer to the pleasant, and oxidized to refer to the unpleasant, without seeking fundamental differences.

As mentioned above, with people having varying thresholds of tolerance for oxidized notes in wine, to me, oxidative is unpleasant and oxidized is dead.

Sort of like, along the same continuum, Gingrich is unpleasant and Reagan is dead?
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
Wines under flor have a complicated mix of oxidations and reductions. The oxidation is mostly of the alcohol and some other components at the surface of the voile. The wine in the bulk is in a more reduced state.
Meta-comment: For me, this is one of the keys to understanding why these kinds of conversations are so difficult. The wine is not a monolithic substance, either all oxidized or all reduced. It can have a layer of this, and a bulk of that, and, for wines that are racked, they mingle and change course, etc.
 
originally posted by JasonA:
originally posted by SFJoe:
How does a 50 y.o. wine get reduced?

Enough of all your other semantics, this is the question I want answered.

Simple answer: if the wine is getting reduced, something has be oxidizing since it is quite literally a zero-sum game. In many wines, what's getting oxidized is the particulate matter that falls out of solution (i.e. sediment). In an older white wine, that's not the case, so one has to look elsewhere. This all presupposes, by the way, an intact seal on the bottle: cork failure will permit oxygen ingress and a loss of reductive status. In a white wine, I'd look to polymerization of the phenolics and oxidation of alcohol to acetate as possible oxidative half-reactions to balance the equation. As my colleague SFJoe has so eloquently put it, separate compartments can lead to complex behavior.

Now back to your regular programming,
Mark Lipton
 
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