2006 Pavelot Pernand-Vergelesses Les Vergelesses

[VLM]

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
I'm pretty sure Kermit, in his section on Burgundy, refers to chaptilization without undue expressions of dismay (but maybe I'm thinking of Beaujolais). Isn't the climate in Burgundy historically less sunny than in the Rhone valley, so it's typically been harder to rely on harvest timing year-in and year-out to ensure adequate body for the wine?

Anyway, personally, I would trust Bachelet to approach the matter with discretion and respect.

I don't give a fuck what Kermit has to say on the subject. I would be interested in what Denis Bachelet has to say on the subject. English major* playing Honkey blues versus winemaker in his 30th vintage.

* No offense to English majors, they just aren't chemists.

 

[maureen]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by maureen:
I don't think Denis Bachelet includes stems; at least not in the 2006.

I'm sure you know this - chapitalization in Burgundy is common (depending on the vintage of course) and not offensive, per se.

Yes, unfortunately it's common wherever the climate is cooler, just as acidification is common wherever the climate is warmer. But I'd rather find enjoyable wines that avoid both, so I don't like reading about an attitude to the practice as cavalier as Bachelet's. Though at least he's honest about it.

There are about 5 people in Burgundy that never chapitalize.

So don't drink Burgundy.

Hmm, give me the list and I'll give them preference.

Promise me you'll never buy another bottle of Bachelet first (good, one less person to compete with for the bottles).

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by maureen:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by maureen:
I don't think Denis Bachelet includes stems; at least not in the 2006.

I'm sure you know this - chapitalization in Burgundy is common (depending on the vintage of course) and not offensive, per se.

Yes, unfortunately it's common wherever the climate is cooler, just as acidification is common wherever the climate is warmer. But I'd rather find enjoyable wines that avoid both, so I don't like reading about an attitude to the practice as cavalier as Bachelet's. Though at least he's honest about it.

There are about 5 people in Burgundy that never chapitalize.

So don't drink Burgundy.

Hmm, give me the list and I'll give them preference.

Promise me you'll never buy another bottle of Bachelet first (good, one less person to compete with for the bottles).

Deal. Though I doubt an fob (friend of Becky) would have anything to worry about.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by VLM:
I don't give a fuck what Kermit has to say on the subject. I would be interested in what Denis Bachelet has to say on the subject.

Any interest in what Chave has to say on the subject?

 

[Unknown]

originally posted by VLM:

There are about 5 people in Burgundy that never chapitalize.

never say never.

say maybe 5 or 6 didn't chapitalize in 2009. we fat folk can only applaud their calorific restraint.

So don't drink Burgundy.

by and large, i hear you.

fb.

 

[Unknown]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
So, egged on by Jeff's fine experience, we took home a pair of bavettes and played a minuet with our bottle of 2006 Denis Bachelet Bourgogne 12.5%. It smelled of little round red fruits and smoked meat. Delicious acidity, good balance, but the finish was awkwardly marred by OTT astringency. Marcia said it tasted like stems were heavily included in the recipe. And so it seemed, rather heavy handed, in our bottle. The bavette paired very well and, while it lasted, absorbed the astringency. Perhaps most important, from the data gathering pov, there was no sense of the wood or excessive concentration that I didn't love in the Pavelot and Henri Boillot. As far as these parameters, quite a different animal.

Speculation corner: perhaps the degree of stem inclusion was an attempt to make up for something missing in 06, and that attempt, so difficult to gauge precisely, backfired. But Burghound quotes Bachelet as saying that 06 was an easy vintage for him, with "good sugars at between 12 and 12.5%, which means that there was almost no chaptalization as I never want alcohols much above that." What, the guy chaptalizes? And "we" still support him? Shame on us! What, a lot of people that "we" support also chaptalize? What, if we stopped supporting everyone that chaptalizes, there would be few producers left to drink? What?

many of the 06s are entering a stage of clumsy adolescence. i'm told even sfjoe's savoir faire slipped a little in his teens. that astringency is from skin tannins. in time they will resolve. or they won't. you have to join in the conversation to find out, and knowing the child can make the plukey teen more palatable.

a few ripe stems contribute that resinous, woody quality that you keep calling oak in unoaked wines; or if you ramp them up, the taste of bug juice. if that's what you are looking for, the 06 drcs may just be worth the crazy spendy tarrif. (or else you are an ant eater, and the universe is sending you the message that beer may be more your thing.)

unchaptalized pinot can be heartbreakingly beautiful. and heartbreakingly difficult to sell. people like their spoof, and in the end, what we get is the wines we deserve.

or something like that, anyway.

sometimes i miss that old git dressner...

fb.

 

[SFJoe]

originally posted by fatboy:
even sfjoe's savoir faire slipped a little in his teens.

Nah, the peak of my arrogance.

 

[maureen]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:Deal. Though I doubt an fob (friend of Becky) would have anything to worry about.

Sigh. I get my Bachelet the old-fashioned way (i.e., from US retailers). Probably why I haven't bought any lately...too spendy for me, as much as I love them.

BTW, an 02 Corbeaux drunk Saturday night with Jay and VLM, inter alia, was pretty damn tasty.

 

[Unknown]

originally posted by maureen:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:Deal. Though I doubt an fob (friend of Becky) would have anything to worry about.

Sigh. I get my Bachelet the old-fashioned way (i.e., from US retailers). Probably why I haven't bought any lately...too spendy for me, as much as I love them.

BTW, an 02 Corbeaux drunk Saturday night with Jay and VLM, inter alia, was pretty damn tasty.

'04 VV I brought to Occupy Spoof was rather odd. Has someone posted a note?

So why do Bachelet's wines have all this dark fruit, particularly in predominantly red-fruited vintages?

 

[maureen]

originally posted by .sasha:

originally posted by maureen:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:Deal. Though I doubt an fob (friend of Becky) would have anything to worry about.

Sigh. I get my Bachelet the old-fashioned way (i.e., from US retailers). Probably why I haven't bought any lately...too spendy for me, as much as I love them.

BTW, an 02 Corbeaux drunk Saturday night with Jay and VLM, inter alia, was pretty damn tasty.

'04 VV I brought to Occupy Spoof was rather odd. Has someone posted a note?

So why do Bachelet's wines have all this dark fruit, particularly in predominantly red-fruited vintages?

well, cold soaking, might influence that. And he makes gevrey-based wines.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by fatboy:

originally posted by VLM:

There are about 5 people in Burgundy that never chapitalize.

say maybe 5 or 6 didn't chapitalize in 2009.

Odd, since 09 was a relatively ripe year, when you would only have to chaptalize if you picked too early.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

So, the undercurrent seems to be that chaptalization (and, presumably, its twin, acidulation) are not offensive, yet reverse osmosis and concentrators make everyone rise in arms. Sitting in the comfort of my armchair, I don't see integrity in any of these practices. If this criterion only leaves a fistful of Burgundy winemakers standing, I'd like to know their names.

 

[Unknown]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by fatboy:

originally posted by VLM:

There are about 5 people in Burgundy that never chapitalize.

say maybe 5 or 6 didn't chapitalize in 2009.

Odd, since 09 was a relatively ripe year, when you would only have to chaptalize if you picked too early.

dude, look through the thread again

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by .sasha:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by fatboy:

originally posted by VLM:

There are about 5 people in Burgundy that never chapitalize.

say maybe 5 or 6 didn't chapitalize in 2009.

Odd, since 09 was a relatively ripe year, when you would only have to chaptalize if you picked too early.

dude, look through the thread again

I see your claim that 09 was more variable than 06, but isn't 09 a riper vintage, overall? If the variability is greater, wouldn't it be for reasons other than underripeness and the need to chaptalize?

 

[Sharon Bowman]

originally posted by .sasha:
you know, they mostly do it to get the additional complexity from extending fermentation, not to achieve an abv number.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

Much obliged.

 

[Unknown]

originally posted by Sharon Bowman:

originally posted by .sasha:
you know, they mostly do it to get the additional complexity from extending fermentation, not to achieve an abv number.

But this is in no way to controvert the claims from Oswaldo and His Corpulence that unchapped pinot can be so absolutely beautiful - it sure can, but then in case of Burgundy the question is, will it meet the consumer's expectations? Will Vosne still come across as strikingly different from every other appellation? This is not to say that you can make a Vosne in Santenay; yet I do believe the inherent differences are emphasized in the cellars, through (at least) decades of experience and feedback.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Sharon Bowman:

originally posted by .sasha:
you know, they mostly do it to get the additional complexity from extending fermentation, not to achieve an abv number.

This is actually super interesting, and raises a few issues/questions of its own:
- doing this in a lean year like 06 probably wouldn't raise abv into "undesirable" territory, but doing it in 09 might.
- perhaps the higher sugars of 09, by themselves, are enough to extend the fermentation, so this practice wouldn't be needed.
- perhaps these longer fermentations generate the darker pinot colors that I don't like.
- perhaps these longer fermentations generate the higher extractions (but without jamminess, since the grapes are not picker over ripe) that I also don't like.
- if producers do this to please the market, there should still be a niche for those who tout minimal intervention, etc.
- why is adding sugar to extend the fermentation any less "reprehensible" than r.o. and concentrators? Just because no machine is required and there's a long tradition of doing it?
- again, the monkey's distinction between goal-driven and process-driven winemaking; the ends don't justify the means in the kind of stuff I'd like to explore.

 

[SFJoe]

Too long an essay subject to assign.

You are asking for absolute answers, but as with most things context and intent matter. If you are picking green because you fear the weather and then chaptalizing up 2 or 3 degrees you are doing something different than a Burg producer who adds a little sugar late in fermentation, say 1/4 or 1/2 a degree, to keep things burbling along. You could almost have different names for them. Chaptalizing sweet wine (extremely common) could almost be a third thing.

Frequent acidification often betrays errors or sins of intent. The grapes are planted in the wrong place or left to hang too long. If it goes together with r/o, water additions, and so on, it forms part of a sinister package.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

Oswaldo, you also might think deeply on what the word traditional means, in this context: Is a practice acceptable because "it was always done that way"? Does it have to pass muster with a modern scientific explanation? How about a modern sensibility?

History abounds with situations that are viewed differently by modern folks versus the people who lived through the period. The custom of breeching no longer occurs because we no longer dress all young children in the same clothes. There are many reasons for the change, some social and some economic. Which style is the spoof?