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Valette Parking
- Thread starter Oswaldo Costa
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Magnums.
nigel groundwater
nigel groundwater
Louis Moreau is Christian's cousin and their separate Domaines are the result of a split of the original Moreau estate but together they still have the largest of all the holdings of Les Clos as well as a vineyard, Clos des Hospices, within it.originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
As luck would have it, just got this invite to a Burgundy event promoted by the French Embassy at which Louis Michel will be present. Among the other, I'm not partial to Ambroise and Roux (based on single samples), but if there's anyone else I should pay attention to, would be much obliged to know (Jeff, there's a Moreau, but not C.).
Stainless steel features in both cousins' winemaking and aging to different degrees depending on the cuvee with both using some new oak, mainly for aging. However Louis only uses oak for his Grand Crus [and then for a much shorter period than Christian's quoted 6 months] with his 1ers and basic Chablis being fermented and aged in steel only.
Christian's basic Chablis is also steel only.
I have only ever had Christian's wines and enjoyed them all and, generally, he has seemed to have had the better reviews. However in recent years I have noted that Louis's same name wines have more often had the same or very similar [high] scores.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
Thanks again, Nigel, extremely useful.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
There is also J. Moreau et Fils and also a Stephan Moreau operating as Dom. Moreau-Naudet. No relations, I believe.
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
Christian's wines have a better reputation, I think, but I couldn't explain why.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
I tasted a line-up of Louis Moreau's wines at Weygandt last week. The Chablis and premier crus were very nice and without oak. The grand crus was noticeably marked by wood. If his is the lighter touch with wood on the grand crus, I'd give Christian Moreau's a wide berth.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
So, another case of spending money and effort to screw up only the wine from his best parcels?originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
I tasted a line-up of Louis Moreau's wines at Weygandt last week. The Chablis and premier crus were very nice and without oak. The grand crus was noticeably marked by wood. If his is the lighter touch with wood on the grand crus, I'd give Christian Moreau's a wide berth.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
So, another case of spending money and effort to screw up only the wine from his best parcels?originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
I tasted a line-up of Louis Moreau's wines at Weygandt last week. The Chablis and premier crus were very nice and without oak. The grand crus was noticeably marked by wood. If his is the lighter touch with wood on the grand crus, I'd give Christian Moreau's a wide berth.
That was indeed my sense. Out of politeness, I stayed mum. There are numbers of CdPs that come from great vineyards that are absolutely ruined with far worse spoof. And I expect that is even more true of more Burgundies.
nigel groundwater
nigel groundwater
I am interested in the comments about the apparent oakiness of the Louis Moreau Grand Cru wines [which I have never had] since the primary and malolactic take place in steel followed by what is described as 'resting on fine lees'. Then a part [they don't quantify the percentage] is aged in small oak barrels [they don't give an age/use profile for these barrels] for up to 2 months before this part is blended back to form the cuvee.
They believe this imparts 'a light oaky note' which is clearly at odds with the experience posted here.
However my experience of Christian's GC wines is certainly not one of excessive oakiness and they are aged for 4-6 months in oak barrels from 1-3 years old with 10% new so the oakiness reported in Louis's wines seems odd.
Of course my personal appreciation of Christian's wines [and of oak generally] may be much less oak sensitive than some but my own judgement of where I stand in the 'oak spectrum' is middling i.e. neither an oakaphobe nor a lover of toasty, high vanillin wines but happy to drink wines [red and white] with and without an oak component.
As I mentioned, Louis's non-GC wines see no oak which is at least consistent with the experience at the Weygandt tasting.
Did any of the wines have any age or were they the latest vintage supplies?
They believe this imparts 'a light oaky note' which is clearly at odds with the experience posted here.
However my experience of Christian's GC wines is certainly not one of excessive oakiness and they are aged for 4-6 months in oak barrels from 1-3 years old with 10% new so the oakiness reported in Louis's wines seems odd.
Of course my personal appreciation of Christian's wines [and of oak generally] may be much less oak sensitive than some but my own judgement of where I stand in the 'oak spectrum' is middling i.e. neither an oakaphobe nor a lover of toasty, high vanillin wines but happy to drink wines [red and white] with and without an oak component.
As I mentioned, Louis's non-GC wines see no oak which is at least consistent with the experience at the Weygandt tasting.
Did any of the wines have any age or were they the latest vintage supplies?
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
I'll be happy to report back after the tasting here, but I'm more on the quercophobic side of things, and even confuse lees with oak, according to recent (and alarming) reports.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
Weygandt tasting was of 09 wines, as I recall. There may have been an 08 or so. I am fairly oak averse, so may be more sensitive than you. And I can be as easily confused as the next person by lees and malo But Louis Moreau, who was there, explicitly noted that the wine saw oak, so he wasn't arguing light treatment. And it was, as I say, marked.
nigel groundwater
nigel groundwater
Thanks for the feedback Jonathan.originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Weygandt tasting was of 09 wines, as I recall. There may have been an 08 or so. I am fairly oak averse, so may be more sensitive than you. And I can be as easily confused as the next person by lees and malo But Louis Moreau, who was there, explicitly noted that the wine saw oak, so he wasn't arguing light treatment. And it was, as I say, marked.
Louis sets out the oak treatment as I noted above but without knowing how much of the steel fermented and lees contacted juice is then placed in 'small wooden barrels for up to two months' [and without knowing how much of that wood, if any, is new] before it is blended back to re-form the original volume it is obviously difficult to know what to expect.
However since Louis's stated objective is 'a light oaky note' your experience should have been of interest to him since it clearly wasn't like that for you.
Of course the only oak treatment used is for the Grand Cru wines and if these were the 09s I suppose it is possible that in a more usual drinking window for a GC the oak might have become more integrated or at least less obtrusive.
Nevertheless if you ever have one of Christian's GCs [from contiguous land since AFAIK they are family vineyards now divided into two Domaines] it would be interesting to have your opinions since I have not found them too-obviously oaky despite an apparently longer and more extensive elevage-in-oak regime.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
Well, in my experience, a producer who wants what s/he describes as "a light oaky note," will almost always produce a wine that has more oak than I like. I've never encountered a producer who says "what I want is oak, and I mean a lot of oak. To hell with it tasting like wine." I'm not saying the Moreau was at that level, but Moreau wanted the taste of oak and he got it.
nigel groundwater
nigel groundwater
Fair enough but perhaps you have met producers who not only mature their wine for many months [not only some of it and only up to 2 months] sometimes in 100% new oak but also ferment in oak [sometimes also 100% new oak] who might then be fairly characterised as intending "what I want is oak, and I mean a lot of oak" - presumably because they believe that will make their wine more attractive to critics and consumers alike.originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Well, in my experience, a producer who wants what s/he describes as "a light oaky note," will almost always produce a wine that has more oak than I like. I've never encountered a producer who says "what I want is oak, and I mean a lot of oak. To hell with it tasting like wine." I'm not saying the Moreau was at that level, but Moreau wanted the taste of oak and he got it.
Now obviously there aren't any white wine producers who go to anything like that extreme but in the pantheon of 'big oak' I would doubt whether Louis Moreau with his stainless steel fermentation and lees contact and partial oak elevage would feature too high - while still clearly being too much for your taste; at least at this very young age for GCs. As I wondered earlier do you think the oak might be less intrusive after say 8-10 years in a wine supposed to last 15 - assuming of course it doesn't end up poxed?
Still it would also be interesting to hear what you think of a Christian Moreau GC if/when you have one since you felt that your Louis experience was enough to warn off possibly oak-sensitive consumers from Christian's wines based on his generally longer elevage in [mainly] 1-3 year old oak.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
So, yesterday I went to that French embassy event and tasted the Louis Michel and Louis Moreau lineups. Impressions (below) were scant, so I'll spare you the details:
For Louis Michel, if the basic Chablis is any indication, the 2010 premiers and gc's must be superb. Sure buys. However, the 2009 premiers and gc's on display were a bit lacking in zing at this early, possibly awkward, stage. But, to reference Yixin's comments about the frequent bull contained in claims of terroir expression, it was interesting to taste five expressions of the same clone of chardonnay, vinified exactly the same way; alas, the differences were faint, at best.
For Louis Moreau, the chablis and premiers are unoaked, four of the gc's were lightly oaked, and the monopole Clos des Hospices heavily oaked. Found the basic chablis bland, but the unoaked premier crus attractive. The amount of wood in the four "humbler" grand crus was perfectly acceptable, but with the Clos de Hospices, presumably because the grapes are finer, they ruin everything by doubling the oak regimen from 4 to 8 months. Interesting, too, how the alcohol level rises perfectly with status. Hmm, I wonder if they chaptalize to add complexity to the fermentation of the gc's. Sounds like a sure bet.
2010 Louis Michel Chablis AOC
Zinging acidity, clean minerality, delicious. A winna.
2009 Louis Michel Chablis Premier Cru Butteaux
Shows baby fat, a bit ripe, seems to need a little acidity.
2009 Louis Michel Chablis Premier Cru Montée de Tonnerre
Same, except slightly richer.
2009 Louis Michel Chablis Grand Cru Vaudésir
Closed. Tastes a bit fatter, sweet edge
2009 Louis Michel Chablis Grand Cru Grenouilles
Closed. Tastes the same as previous.
2009 Louis Michel Chablis Grand Cru Les Clos
Closed. Tastes more structured, denser.
2010 Domaine Louis Moreau Chablis AOC 12.0%
No wood. OK, but nothing apecial.
2009 Domaine Louis Moreau Chablis Premier Cru Les Fourneaux 12.5%
No wood. Rich, somewhat exotic. Nice.
2009 Domaine Louis Moreau Chablis Premier Cru Vaillons 12.5%
No wood. Good, but preferred the Fourneaux.
2008 Domaine Louis Moreau Chablis Grand Cru Vaudésir 13.5%
4 months in wood. Closed. Found the level of wood flavor acceptable.
2008 Domaine Louis Moreau Chablis Grand Cru Blanchot 13.5%
4 months in wood. Closed. Found the level of wood flavor acceptable.
2008 Domaine Louis Moreau Chablis Grand Cru Les Clos 13.5%
4 months in wood. Closed. Found the level of wood flavor acceptable.
2008 Domaine Louis Moreau Chablis Grand Cru Clos des Hospices 13.5%
8 months in wood. Smells and tastes of too much wood.
For Louis Michel, if the basic Chablis is any indication, the 2010 premiers and gc's must be superb. Sure buys. However, the 2009 premiers and gc's on display were a bit lacking in zing at this early, possibly awkward, stage. But, to reference Yixin's comments about the frequent bull contained in claims of terroir expression, it was interesting to taste five expressions of the same clone of chardonnay, vinified exactly the same way; alas, the differences were faint, at best.
For Louis Moreau, the chablis and premiers are unoaked, four of the gc's were lightly oaked, and the monopole Clos des Hospices heavily oaked. Found the basic chablis bland, but the unoaked premier crus attractive. The amount of wood in the four "humbler" grand crus was perfectly acceptable, but with the Clos de Hospices, presumably because the grapes are finer, they ruin everything by doubling the oak regimen from 4 to 8 months. Interesting, too, how the alcohol level rises perfectly with status. Hmm, I wonder if they chaptalize to add complexity to the fermentation of the gc's. Sounds like a sure bet.
2010 Louis Michel Chablis AOC
Zinging acidity, clean minerality, delicious. A winna.
2009 Louis Michel Chablis Premier Cru Butteaux
Shows baby fat, a bit ripe, seems to need a little acidity.
2009 Louis Michel Chablis Premier Cru Montée de Tonnerre
Same, except slightly richer.
2009 Louis Michel Chablis Grand Cru Vaudésir
Closed. Tastes a bit fatter, sweet edge
2009 Louis Michel Chablis Grand Cru Grenouilles
Closed. Tastes the same as previous.
2009 Louis Michel Chablis Grand Cru Les Clos
Closed. Tastes more structured, denser.
2010 Domaine Louis Moreau Chablis AOC 12.0%
No wood. OK, but nothing apecial.
2009 Domaine Louis Moreau Chablis Premier Cru Les Fourneaux 12.5%
No wood. Rich, somewhat exotic. Nice.
2009 Domaine Louis Moreau Chablis Premier Cru Vaillons 12.5%
No wood. Good, but preferred the Fourneaux.
2008 Domaine Louis Moreau Chablis Grand Cru Vaudésir 13.5%
4 months in wood. Closed. Found the level of wood flavor acceptable.
2008 Domaine Louis Moreau Chablis Grand Cru Blanchot 13.5%
4 months in wood. Closed. Found the level of wood flavor acceptable.
2008 Domaine Louis Moreau Chablis Grand Cru Les Clos 13.5%
4 months in wood. Closed. Found the level of wood flavor acceptable.
2008 Domaine Louis Moreau Chablis Grand Cru Clos des Hospices 13.5%
8 months in wood. Smells and tastes of too much wood.
originally posted by SFJoe:
Oswaldo,
That "Clos des Hospices" is just Clos that they get from the Hospices, not some new GC that I've never seen before, right?
It is a clos with "Les Clos" called "Clos des Hospices", IIRC.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
originally posted by SFJoe:
Oswaldo,
That "Clos des Hospices" is just Clos that they get from the Hospices, not some new GC that I've never seen before, right?
I understood it to be a different vineyard that we haven't seen before because it's a monopole, but google tells me it's as you presumed:
A Moreau family exclusivity from with-in the Grand cru Les Clos. This small plot of Grand cru was purchased from the Hospice in Chablis in 1904. (...) The Clos des Hospices, located low on the hill and therefore featuring a bit more humidity, normally does best in dry years like 2003 and 2005, notes Moreau."
Source: http://www.winestar.com.au/prod578.htm
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
Oops, crossed with the monkey.