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2009 Rhys plus outliers
- Thread starter Jay Miller
- Start date
Keith Levenberg
Keith Levenberg
Anyway, I'm with Jay in that this was my least favorite Rhys lineup since we started doing these five vintages ago. I didn't get any enjoyment at all out of either of the Alpines. The Skyline didn't do it for me either at first but it developed OK with air. Not into the beauty that the 2008 was, but at least it was possible to see that there was another side of it. I do think, as I mentioned then, that we'd probably need to repeat this exercise in another 6-12 months before making any judgments. I remember the 2006 Alpines were total fruit bombs when they came out but it didn't take long for them to shed the baby fat and become very interesting.
I was even more crushed than Jay by the 1991 Mount Eden. I don't know what went wrong here. Another bottle I bought at the same time showed great, albeit not quite as great as the one Jay referenced that we had a few years ago. This one didn't taste OTH (quite the opposite in fact - it didn't stand out as significantly older in taste than the Rhys 2009s...) - it was just characterless.
I was even more crushed than Jay by the 1991 Mount Eden. I don't know what went wrong here. Another bottle I bought at the same time showed great, albeit not quite as great as the one Jay referenced that we had a few years ago. This one didn't taste OTH (quite the opposite in fact - it didn't stand out as significantly older in taste than the Rhys 2009s...) - it was just characterless.
Keith Levenberg
Keith Levenberg
What's chauvinistic about wanting to take pride in something produced in your country? (And if it's chauvinistic, why isn't it just as chauvinistic to take an interest in something because it's "local"?)originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Keith Levenberg: I imagine that French citizens in Paris are able to take some patriotic pride in Latour and Lafite, even though Kentish pinot noir country is much closer as the crow flies.
No one ever said that French chauvinism was attractive or helpful for the broader wine scene in France. (Helpful for certain French producers, perhaps. But that's a different economic story)
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
What's chauvinistic about wanting to take pride in something produced in your country?
Attaching a high level of meaning/pride to your group/place is the definition of chauvinism. Some people like that.
(And if it's chauvinistic, why isn't it just as chauvinistic to take an interest in something because it's "local"?)
One value of local wine is that it is more in sync with your local climate. Just like banannas taste better in the tropics, wine tastes that extra bit better among the elements of its origin.
Another value of local wine is that it reduces the possibilities for damage through shipping.
Neither of these values apply to CA wine drunk on the East Coast.
But hey, all purchases are political and reflect our values. And I understand why some folks would want to support American winemakers. I support various businesss for various reasons (although when I buy ESJ it's not because it's American, it's because the wine is good). And given the Euro focus of this board I was just needling VLM to see how far he would take his argument.
Y'know, I'm not sure I agree. I suspect that wines on the boat from Yurp may actually suffer less than wines on the truck from Napa.originally posted by Rahsaan:
Another value of local wine is that it reduces the possibilities for damage through shipping.
Neither of these values apply to CA wine drunk on the East Coast.
I could be wrong, but I have the odd anecdote in my favor.
Salil Benegal
Salil Benegal
Schaefer's 2008s are incredible. His Domprobst Spaetlese #5 was also impeccably balanced and had such depth. And I wish I had bought a lot more of the GD Kabinett - remember Crush offering it in half bottles (why doesn't he bottle those more often?), none of which lasted particularly long once open.originally posted by .sasha:
Completely shut down, as are all his 2008 Spaetlesen. One of the greatest Kabs I have ever come across, on release, right up there with 1997 Von Schubert Abstberg, 2001 Schaefer GH, 2001 Egon and something else I can't remember right now. And the reason it comes across as "lovely" and "light" is because it is so freaking balanced.
originally posted by .sasha:
One of the greatest Kabs I have ever come across, on release, right up there with 1997 Von Schubert Abstberg...
I remember when the two of us polished off a bottle of that in about fifteen minutes while watching a Yankee game, it was so good.
originally posted by SFJoe:
Y'know, I'm not sure I agree. I suspect that wines on the boat from Yurp may actually suffer less than wines on the truck from Napa.originally posted by Rahsaan:
Another value of local wine is that it reduces the possibilities for damage through shipping.
Neither of these values apply to CA wine drunk on the East Coast.
I could be wrong, but I have the odd anecdote in my favor.
Well my point is that Napa isn't 'local' for most of us Americans who have to get the wines via a truck or some other transport method more complicated than just going to the winery.
Larry Stein
Larry Stein
originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by .sasha:
One of the greatest Kabs I have ever come across, on release, right up there with 1997 Von Schubert Abstberg...
I remember when the two of us polished off a bottle of that in about fifteen minutes while watching a Yankee game, it was so good.
If you're coming in July for your annual Bay Area jaunt and we get a chance to jeebus, I'll bring that bottle.
Tom Glasgow
Thomas W Glasgow
Guns and west coast wine, what's more American?originally posted by Rahsaan:
???
(Although admittedly CA is closer than France to where he lives)
But neither are really local. And while I understand wanting to have a local wine culture, once you get past several thousand miles I don't distinguish on that basis.
Jay Miller
Jay Miller
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Anyway, I'm with Jay in that this was my least favorite Rhys lineup since we started doing these five vintages ago. I didn't get any enjoyment at all out of either of the Alpines. The Skyline didn't do it for me either at first but it developed OK with air. Not into the beauty that the 2008 was, but at least it was possible to see that there was another side of it. I do think, as I mentioned then, that we'd probably need to repeat this exercise in another 6-12 months before making any judgments. I remember the 2006 Alpines were total fruit bombs when they came out but it didn't take long for them to shed the baby fat and become very interesting.
I was even more crushed than Jay by the 1991 Mount Eden. I don't know what went wrong here. Another bottle I bought at the same time showed great, albeit not quite as great as the one Jay referenced that we had a few years ago. This one didn't taste OTH (quite the opposite in fact - it didn't stand out as significantly older in taste than the Rhys 2009s...) - it was just characterless.
Of course they were bound to run into a troublesome vintage eventually. We'd just gotten conditioned to expect improvement from year to year.
Mike Hinds
Mike Hinds
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
I do think, as I mentioned then, that we'd probably need to repeat this exercise in another 6-12 months before making any judgments.
Yep. The 09 SCM I had just two weeks ago showed enough detail and complexity that I was actually taken aback, given the wine's youth and declassified / "early drinker" status. With the designate wines being described as watery, lactic, or dull, I'm guessing they're just sorting themselves out.
Jay Miller
Jay Miller
originally posted by Mike Hinds:
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
I do think, as I mentioned then, that we'd probably need to repeat this exercise in another 6-12 months before making any judgments.
Yep. The 09 SCM I had just two weeks ago showed enough detail and complexity that I was actually taken aback, given the wine's youth and declassified / "early drinker" status. With the designate wines being described as watery, lactic, or dull, I'm guessing they're just sorting themselves out.
It's certainly true that the FF has firmed up considerably from the Autumn so I wouldn't be surprised. But I would be surprised if these '09s with the possible exception of FF and the as yet untasted Horseshoe were ever better than the equivalent '08s.
Keith Levenberg
Keith Levenberg
It was the opposite issue for me. I just found them too thick and fruity.originally posted by Mike Hinds:
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
I do think, as I mentioned then, that we'd probably need to repeat this exercise in another 6-12 months before making any judgments.
Yep. The 09 SCM I had just two weeks ago showed enough detail and complexity that I was actually taken aback, given the wine's youth and declassified / "early drinker" status. With the designate wines being described as watery, lactic, or dull, I'm guessing they're just sorting themselves out.
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
What's chauvinistic about wanting to take pride in something produced in your country?
Attaching a high level of meaning/pride to your group/place is the definition of chauvinism. Some people like that.
(And if it's chauvinistic, why isn't it just as chauvinistic to take an interest in something because it's "local"?)
One value of local wine is that it is more in sync with your local climate. Just like banannas taste better in the tropics, wine tastes that extra bit better among the elements of its origin.
Another value of local wine is that it reduces the possibilities for damage through shipping.
Neither of these values apply to CA wine drunk on the East Coast.
But hey, all purchases are political and reflect our values. And I understand why some folks would want to support American winemakers. I support various businesss for various reasons (although when I buy ESJ it's not because it's American, it's because the wine is good). And given the Euro focus of this board I was just needling VLM to see how far he would take his argument.
This far.
I think the wines have the potential to be at the quality of top 1er Cru Burgundy, although different. Given that they are less than most of the 1er Cru Burgundies I buy, I'm on board.
I also think that given the right care (and especially the right choice on what to plant and where), there are going to be excellent wines from CA that will be unlike what you can get anywhere else, just like Chinon and Chambolle.
Everything else being equal, I buy when I can, I buy North Carolina when I can, I buy American when I can. Now, for many, many things, I would either have to lower my expectations or do without. So I still buy Chinon, Chambolle, and German cars.
originally posted by Tom Glasgow:
Card carrying NRA member?originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by VLM: I want to drink American wine.
Why?
California isn't all that much closer than France to where you live.
Nah, I'm for gun control. Doesn't mean I don't like to shoot things. Hell, everyone loves to shoot things, not just Americans.
U
Unknown
Guest
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Wow, seriously? I can't think of any 2008 Germans that I'd describe as a "greatest" anything. Admittedly I don't remember having this one on release but the only producer I really dug that year was Schaefer-Frohlich.originally posted by .sasha:
originally posted by Jay Miller:
2008 Willi Schaefer Graacher Domprobst Riesling Kabinett
Not terribly complex but lovely, light and lilting
Completely shut down, as are all his 2008 Spaetlesen. One of the greatest Kabs I have ever come across, on release, right up there with 1997 Von Schubert Abstberg, 2001 Schaefer GH, 2001 Egon and something else I can't remember right now. And the reason it comes across as "lovely" and "light" is because it is so freaking balanced.
It may go down as mostly a Kab/Spatlese vintage, but a damn good one.
Jeff Connell
Jeff Connell
Just how many German cars do you buy? Can you loan me one so I can get to New York? And what's with the future tense above? Are you saying there are not excellent wines from CA, unlike what you can get anywhere else?originally posted by VLM:
I also think that given the right care (and especially the right choice on what to plant and where), there are going to be excellent wines from CA that will be unlike what you can get anywhere else, just like Chinon and Chambolle.
Everything else being equal, I buy when I can, I buy North Carolina when I can, I buy American when I can. Now, for many, many things, I would either have to lower my expectations or do without. So I still buy Chinon, Chambolle, and German cars.
originally posted by Jeff Connell:
Just how many German cars do you buy? Can you loan me one so I can get to New York? And what's with the future tense above? Are you saying there are not excellent wines from CA, unlike what you can get anywhere else?originally posted by VLM:
I also think that given the right care (and especially the right choice on what to plant and where), there are going to be excellent wines from CA that will be unlike what you can get anywhere else, just like Chinon and Chambolle.
Everything else being equal, I buy Durham* when I can, I buy North Carolina when I can, I buy American when I can. Now, for many, many things, I would either have to lower my expectations or do without. So I still buy Chinon, Chambolle, and German cars.
I only buy one German car at a time, unfortunately. I've not managed to turn myself into a plutocrat just yet. Frankly, I'm not sure how.
There are some excellent wines from CA that are unlike wines from anywhere else, but I hope for a further refinement of that in future. I hope that's clear.
*Edited.