Query: the morphing of Pinot Noir with age

M

MLipton

Mark Lipton
A question I have been pondering of late stems from our somewhat recent realization that Jean and I both prefer Pinot Noirs drawn from the red-fruited side of the spectrum with bright, crunchy acids and a light palate presence. Well enough, and we've found a number of examples that fit the bill from various sources. However, I've begun to notice that most of these examples that start out life juicy and red-fruited become darker fruited, deeper and less fresh with age. OK, I know that wines in general will become less fresh with time and I even understand (or think I do) what happens to those acids with age, but why does the fruit change from the red side of the spectrum to the black side? One year's fresh strawberries becomes next year's black cherries. I've noticed this progression in Pinot Noirs from the Cote d'Or, the USA and New Zealand, so it's not a simple geographical thing.

My questions:
1. Have others experienced this, too?
2. If so, how do feel about these changes?
3. Is there more to this progression than the two stages I've listed? Am I seeing merely an intermediate stage in these wines' development?

Mark Lipton
 
for a diagnosis, real examples are needed.

in the absence of same, your more vague descriptions make me think that you have found yourselves digging on teh hotter grown, strategically picked and then chaptalized up the whazoo shitz when they is young and flush with make-up like.

the good news is that -- yixin notwithstanding -- there is no (capital) crime in drinking this shit. indeed, the 1970s and my extensive collection of loud sports coats are here to welcome and encourage these tastes. they say chill the hooch, chillz teh fuck out, and don't forget to keep an eye on the use by date.

if you are seeking enlightenment and something more real, the path ahead is rockier. we live in challenging times for teh pinotz. the girth of fatsink is testament to this. seeing as what you describe is more collapse than morph (but you dig it), you should seriously think about whether you want to learn and twist, or just stick on this one.

fb.
 
originally posted by fatboy:
for a diagnosis, real examples are needed.
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Fair enough. Several recent examples are 2006 Drouhin Chorey, 2006 Copain "Tous Ensemble" and 2007 Amisfield.

I'm now growing nervous about the 2008 Ganevat "Cuvée Julien" that knocked me out last year at Ten Bells (and which I haven't tasted since).

in the absence of same, your more vague descriptions make me think that you have found yourselves digging on teh hotter grown, strategically picked and then chaptalized up the whazoo shitz when they is young and flush with make-up like.
Click to expand...

Hot growing conditions and Chaptalization make no sense in light of what I'm finding. Feel free to elaborate, however, in the context of the examples I've provided above.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by fatboy:
for a diagnosis, real examples are needed.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. Several recent examples are 2006 Drouhin Chorey, 2006 Copain "Tous Ensemble" and 2007 Amisfield.
Click to expand...

wow.

see point 1 above.

in the absence of same, your more vague descriptions make me think that you have found yourselves digging on teh hotter grown, strategically picked and then chaptalized up the whazoo shitz when they is young and flush with make-up like.
Click to expand...

Hot growing conditions and Chaptalization make no sense in light of what I'm finding. Feel free to elaborate, however, in the context of the examples I've provided above.
Click to expand...

all of the "wine" you cite above was grown in climes too warm for making good wine from pinot noir. tout simple (the chorey may be marginal, though i doubt it in 2005 -- and seriously, even if we ignore teh grape matter extracted from teh cali-hari, drouhin chorey??).

pinot noir is a "fickle grape", they say.

"they," as ever, have lost the plot. not that it ever mattered. like a lot of teh classics, if you grow the grapes in hotter climes where ripening is no longer marginal, you get lots of weird aromatics from the skins (i'll leave the post hoc chemical elucidation to joe and yourself, but teh experiential facts is what they is -- why else would syrah grown south of somewhere really quite northern always taste of soap suds?).

in hot pinot, for a short while, you get strawberry.

as for chaptalization, it is the curse of pinot noir vinification. you could ripen pinot noir in san diego, and some "knowledgable" mother fucker would still advise you pick earlier, and then chuck in some sugar to "extract color and body." because that is what everyone does.

chaptalized pinot gets darker, duller and more soul destroying with time. it's because the sugary puppy fat stops covering up the bullshit beneath as time goes by.

given the wines we are discussing, this is more detail than is merited. as i said, you could get with the program; or else you could buy a chiller, enjoy, and just keep more of an eye on the "use by" dates.

fb.
 
Mark, I'm not sure that generalizations can be proffered when it comes to Calif Pinot Noirs.

Yes, certain producers e.g. Ken Burnap and Jeff Emery can be everything we would want; however, they are the exception.

. . . . . Pete
 
You're asking Us, Mr. Chemistry Himself? And easy solution - but you are not going to like it - drink the crunchy vintages in their youthfulness, before the darkness settles in. Told you you wouldn't like said solution. I have no idea about the wines becoming 'darker', I find acid stays with a wine and sometimes age makes it even more obvious, so instead of having a bright, youthful expression of pinot you only have an acid bath with less fruit to back it up.
 
That's because they are black fruited to begin with, a quality hidden by "bright, crunchy acids and a light palate presence" which makes them appear more red fruited in youth. Countless examples from 1988 and 1993, particularly the former.
 
the 04 mugnier marechale I drank last night was fairly red-fruited - but generally I agree with sasha's view.

Try some Oregon pinots, but not the really expensive stuff.
 
originally posted by MarkS:
I find acid stays with a wine and sometimes age makes it even more obvious
Click to expand...
Chris Coad will gladly explain why this isn't usually so.

As, I'm sure, will Prof. L.
 
originally posted by fatboy:

all of the "wine" you cite above was grown in climes too warm for making good wine from pinot noir. tout simple (the chorey may be marginal, though i doubt it in 2005 -- and seriously, even if we ignore teh grape matter extracted from teh cali-hari, drouhin chorey??).
Click to expand...

The Chorey was an '06, not an '05. And '06 was a particularly cool growing year in CA, too, especially in Mendo where the Tous Ensemble is sourced from. More to the point, if you're in a warm clime you have no need to Chaptalize -- just keep those grapes on the vine for a day longer and you'll have all the sugar and extract that you want. And Central Otago is still a "cool climate" growing zone according to those who classify such things (1100 degree-days @10C base vs. 1278 for Beaune and 1161 for McMinnville, OR).

pinot noir is a "fickle grape", they say.

"they," as ever, have lost the plot. not that it ever mattered. like a lot of teh classics, if you grow the grapes in hotter climes where ripening is no longer marginal, you get lots of weird aromatics from the skins (i'll leave the post hoc chemical elucidation to joe and yourself, but teh experiential facts is what they is -- why else would syrah grown south of somewhere really quite northern always taste of soap suds?).

in hot pinot, for a short while, you get strawberry.
Click to expand...

That hasn't been my experience with the horror shows produced in places like the SLH, but I freely confess to being far from an expert on warm climate PN. The ones I've tasted have tasted like goopy Syrah from the get-go, but in many that's masked by the NFO from the high toast barrels that they use.

chaptalized pinot gets darker, duller and more soul destroying with time. it's because the sugary puppy fat stops covering up the bullshit beneath as time goes by.
Click to expand...

This seems to be what Sasha's saying, too, but I find it hard to swallow that one can mask black cherries sucessfully with strawberries and acid. Maybe I just don't get out enough.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by maureen:
the 04 mugnier marechale I drank last night was fairly red-fruited - but generally I agree with sasha's view.

Try some Oregon pinots, but not the really expensive stuff.
Click to expand...

I do, Maureen, every time I'm there. There are a few producers I like up there, but for the most part I find that they're either too big or too simple and they're almost always too expensive. Of the ones I've tried, I like St. Innocent, Dom. Drouhin, Cristom and Patty Green. I've got some Belle Pente but haven't tried it yet. Frankly, though, I find it easier to find reasonably priced, good quality PN in Burgundy and the Jura than I do in Oregon or CA.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by .sasha:
That's because they are black fruited to begin with, a quality hidden by "bright, crunchy acids and a light palate presence" which makes them appear more red fruited in youth. Countless examples from 1988 and 1993, particularly the former.
Click to expand...

Interesting. So the acids have an ability to mask the black or make it appear more red fruited? I'm agog, but I'll get over it.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by MarkS:
I find acid stays with a wine and sometimes age makes it even more obvious
Click to expand...
Chris Coad will gladly explain why this isn't usually so.

As, I'm sure, will Prof. L.
Click to expand...

I've read some chemist on this board refer to the gradual conversion of acids to esters as a source of lessening acidity in wine. I'll try to unearth that source...

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by fatboy:


the good news is that -- yixin notwithstanding -- there is no (capital) crime in drinking this shit.
Click to expand...

Of course not, but jedem das seine, if one wants to be offensive about it.

The solution is to dose the older wine with some Beaujolais. Usually works for me. Last had an '88 Drouhin Corton-Bressandes, to which I added some 2010 Brun Fleurie Grille Midi and (here's the genius part, if I may say so) an equal amount of 2009 Dupasquier Rosé (Gamay and Pinot, natch). So you get all the strawberries you want, nicely resolved structure, and some complexity at the end. I have one more bottle of said Drouhin if anyone is in Singapore soon to test out other combinations.

Too bad Rudy blew it, eh?
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by MarkS:
I find acid stays with a wine and sometimes age makes it even more obvious
Click to expand...
Chris Coad will gladly explain why this isn't usually so.

As, I'm sure, will Prof. L.
Click to expand...

It's a combination of Acid Gnomes and the re-sugarification process.

I could go on, but I sense technical chemistry talk would go over your head.
 
originally posted by MLipton:

The Chorey was an '06, not an '05. And '06 was a particularly cool growing year in CA, too, especially in Mendo where the Tous Ensemble is sourced from. More to the point, if you're in a warm clime you have no need to Chaptalize -- just keep those grapes on the vine for a day longer and you'll have all the sugar and extract that you want. And Central Otago is still a "cool climate" growing zone according to those who classify such things (1100 degree-days @10C base vs. 1278 for Beaune and 1161 for McMinnville, OR).
Click to expand...

we are talking pinot noir here -- strawberry is very often a sign of sur maturite. the chaptalizing is not done to correct a lack of sugar in the grapes themselves, but rather it helps with cosmetics by beefing up the extract during fermentation. if you bulk up the finished wine, you can cover up some of the clumsy aromatics that develop in pinot noir grapes that have sugar but no great physiological ripeness in them (for those of you cooking this at home, a slathering of oak helps too). add in some over-cropping or plants that yield larger berries, and you have a recipe for the wines you described at the outset.

the answers to your questions lie in habit, shitty clones and not growing grapes in places that provide the right balance between fruit and physiological maturity at harvest, not in "ripeness" in the way i think you are imaging.

fb.
 
originally posted by MLipton:
Central Otago is still a "cool climate" growing zone according to those who classify such things (1100 degree-days @10C base vs. 1278 for Beaune and 1161 for McMinnville, OR).
Click to expand...

Yeah, but it's not just about temperature, otherwise going up the Andes would do the trick, it's also about the amount of light and its angle of incidence, and the latitude of Central Otago (45) is just a wee bit too low. Only at 47 degrees, at X kilometers from the ocean, do light and heat pair with the right degree of corpulent marginality.
 
originally posted by MLipton: Frankly, though, I find it easier to find reasonably priced, good quality PN in Burgundy and the Jura than I do in Oregon or CA.

Mark Lipton
Click to expand...

I feel the same way as you. Although the other week I was hanging out with some friends in CA who mainly drink CA pinot noir, so I figured I should meet them on their terms, sort of. I bought a bottle of 2010 Ponzi Tavola Pinot Noir, which was very respectable at $25-30 and miles better than the Siduri Pinot Noir I also bought as a concession to their tastes. Nonetheless, I rarely drink any of those wines so it was all news to me.
 
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