Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
Indeed, it's only the 15% (equally unusual, no?) that raises some kind of flag.
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The customer is not always right
- Thread starter Yixin
- Start date
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
My bigger point was that, since winemaking corrections like acid and sugar and SO2 are not expressly forbidden by Steiner, BD winemakers can, through interpretation, allow themselves liberties that "natural" winemakers might not.
But again, I can't see any consideration in Steiner philosophy that could be the raw material on which such an interpretation concerning winemaking could be seriously build.
Jeff Connell
Jeff Connell
The alcohol in this wine is not extremely high. Yixin reports that it was harvested at above 15° potential. The finished wine, I presume, has abv slightly lower than the natural potential at harvest. Savennières at 14° would be slightly on the high side of normal, especially in a ripe year. In the Anjou it is normal to bring in Chenin with natural potential that soars well above 15°. But anyway, anywhere that natural potential alcohol is high to begin with, say above 13°, chaptalization is most unusual.originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Thank you for that, Eric, but I think that adhering to what Steiner said or didn't say is not helpful to understanding what BD represents in winemaking today. It's been years since I read Joly's book, so I don't recall what code he derived from Steiner, but it's this absence of specific directions that allowed him and other BD winemakers to come up with their own interpretations, whether Demeter certified or not. Joly will have a code, Augé will have another, Rateau another, and so on.
My original question was about the extremely high alcohol in this particular wine, and could it be natural. Maybe it can be explained by late picking (which would probably require acidification), but my point was that, unlike in "minimal intervention" winemaking, it could be chaptalization because BD doesn't forbid it. My bigger point was that, since winemaking corrections like acid and sugar and SO2 are not expressly forbidden by Steiner, BD winemakers can, through interpretation, allow themselves liberties that "natural" winemakers might not.
Carrying on, I'm perplexed by your assertion about Steiner's irrelevance. So, can a farmer do whatever he wants, and say whatever he wants about what he is doing, and that is bio-dynamic agriculture? And how would "winemaking", per se, be bio-dynamic?
Not really. As Comrade Connell says, I think it's pretty easy to get there in Savennieres, particularly if your yields aren't too high and your harvest isn't too early.originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Indeed, it's only the 15% (equally unusual, no?) that raises some kind of flag.
Not my favorite way for the wine to be, and I've had my say on this one before, but Savennieres are usually big, powerful wines.
Arno Tronche
Arnaud Tronche
I highly doubt they chaptalised. They are part of the Renaissance des Appellations, in the 3 stars category (or whatever it is called) where chaptalisation/acidification is strictly forbidden.
But honestly not sure why 15% is so puzzling. As Joe said, those are actually big wines and many of them often in the 14-15% range.
But honestly not sure why 15% is so puzzling. As Joe said, those are actually big wines and many of them often in the 14-15% range.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
I checked and it's 14.5%. Not quite Abe Schooner in the Loire, but the general direction seems to be headed north.
Jeff, I don't think I said that Steiner himself was irrelevant, I said his silence about winemaking was irrelevant to whether they can chaptalize or not. As for "And how would "winemaking", per se, be bio-dynamic?", there are cellar practices based on propitious (fruit and flower) days, bottling according to phases of the moon, avoiding root and leaf days, etc.
Arno, thanks for the RdA info, helpful appeasement for my speculation.
Jeff, I don't think I said that Steiner himself was irrelevant, I said his silence about winemaking was irrelevant to whether they can chaptalize or not. As for "And how would "winemaking", per se, be bio-dynamic?", there are cellar practices based on propitious (fruit and flower) days, bottling according to phases of the moon, avoiding root and leaf days, etc.
Arno, thanks for the RdA info, helpful appeasement for my speculation.
Scott Kraft
Scott Kraft
Yixin,
How does it develop over a few days after opening?
How does it develop over a few days after opening?
No chaptalisation that I know of on the cuvée, or their other wines.
They tend to get a fair whack of botrytis on the wines; in the early 2000s it was more than half of the grapes. It's now about a third, depending on the vintage. So that's part of the story; Nicolas is on record as saying that he thinks the botrytis is an integral part of terroir expression.
Furthermore, Chenin can pack in the sugar quite quickly in September, even without the help of botrytis. If it's too dry and windy (cf. 2004) for botrytis to take hold, passerillage will do the trick. The old rocks soil of the Anjou lend themselves to higher alcohol wines than, say, the clay-chalk combinations found further east.
The only real way to bring potential down is through higher yields, and for both vine health and marketing reasons that's not often done. Maybe if you head prune sensibly, you can encourage an upwards tick in yield over several years, but the current spacing/training systems make it very difficult to lengthen the canes. Marc Angeli is probably one of the few with the vines and expertise to do so, but I think it's highly unlikely he will move in such a direction.
There's no doubt that the stated alcohol levels have crept up over the last three decades, even for more traditional estates like Epire, and I struggle to think of many vintages post-1990 where the more conscientious growers didn't hit 13% potential for most of their plots. Perhaps 1999, when some tried to rescue their grapes from early botrytis and rot.
But pace SFJoe, chaptalisation does occur, mostly to 'round out' a wine. North Anjou Chenin can be harsh in youth*, and a touch of residual sugar always helps. Heck, even amongst the warm and sunny hillocks south of the river, quite a few chaptalise.
*Imagine a vintage where flowering is slightly late, delayed by April frost. A cold summer means the bunches come out slowly and unevenly. The grapes start ripening, but by late September the parcels at the top of the hill are essentially dessicated by the winds, and closer to river botrytis is spreading quickly. You taste the bunches, and they are powerful, heady, but the malic:tartaric balance tilts heavily towards the former. Total acidity is normal, but pH is low. What do you do, knowing that the malic streak will always be present? Force a malo? Leave some sugar in the wine? Other adjustments? For what it's worth, the apple skin quality of many Jasnières in vintages like 2000 is testament to such weather conditions. Or indeed of Saar rieslings from that same vintage.
They tend to get a fair whack of botrytis on the wines; in the early 2000s it was more than half of the grapes. It's now about a third, depending on the vintage. So that's part of the story; Nicolas is on record as saying that he thinks the botrytis is an integral part of terroir expression.
Furthermore, Chenin can pack in the sugar quite quickly in September, even without the help of botrytis. If it's too dry and windy (cf. 2004) for botrytis to take hold, passerillage will do the trick. The old rocks soil of the Anjou lend themselves to higher alcohol wines than, say, the clay-chalk combinations found further east.
The only real way to bring potential down is through higher yields, and for both vine health and marketing reasons that's not often done. Maybe if you head prune sensibly, you can encourage an upwards tick in yield over several years, but the current spacing/training systems make it very difficult to lengthen the canes. Marc Angeli is probably one of the few with the vines and expertise to do so, but I think it's highly unlikely he will move in such a direction.
There's no doubt that the stated alcohol levels have crept up over the last three decades, even for more traditional estates like Epire, and I struggle to think of many vintages post-1990 where the more conscientious growers didn't hit 13% potential for most of their plots. Perhaps 1999, when some tried to rescue their grapes from early botrytis and rot.
But pace SFJoe, chaptalisation does occur, mostly to 'round out' a wine. North Anjou Chenin can be harsh in youth*, and a touch of residual sugar always helps. Heck, even amongst the warm and sunny hillocks south of the river, quite a few chaptalise.
*Imagine a vintage where flowering is slightly late, delayed by April frost. A cold summer means the bunches come out slowly and unevenly. The grapes start ripening, but by late September the parcels at the top of the hill are essentially dessicated by the winds, and closer to river botrytis is spreading quickly. You taste the bunches, and they are powerful, heady, but the malic:tartaric balance tilts heavily towards the former. Total acidity is normal, but pH is low. What do you do, knowing that the malic streak will always be present? Force a malo? Leave some sugar in the wine? Other adjustments? For what it's worth, the apple skin quality of many Jasnières in vintages like 2000 is testament to such weather conditions. Or indeed of Saar rieslings from that same vintage.
originally posted by Scott Kraft:
Yixin,
How does it develop over a few days after opening?
Punctuated equilibria. It shifts, imperceptibly to me, then sometimes there's a sudden leap to freshness when it drops the hot fermentation notes to emerge, chrysalis-like, shiny and showy. Maybe about 36-54 hours after opening?
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
originally posted by Yixin:
The 2010 does not have the freshness of the 2008 (and most likely never will), but it does have the exotic notes typical of the Joly parcels, and a fair measure of botrytis. Drink this wine with something strongly flavoured, and take time to savour it. Don't be foolish and disrespectful.
Is it correct that the higher concentration of sugar often associated with botrytis isn't present here, because the wine has been fermented dry, or nearly so?
What kinds of foods would you serve it with?
Thanks.
Scott Kraft
Scott Kraft
originally posted by Yixin:
originally posted by Scott Kraft:
Yixin,
How does it develop over a few days after opening?
Punctuated equilibria. It shifts, imperceptibly to me, then sometimes there's a sudden leap to freshness when it drops the hot fermentation notes to emerge, chrysalis-like, shiny and showy. Maybe about 36-54 hours after opening?
Why not work with the restaurants on some way of serving it 3 days after opening it?
Jeff Connell
Jeff Connell
The point was that biodynamic agriculture, as conceived and taught by Rudolf Steiner, is a philosophy about how to farm. You might be on board or not. Why would there be a point of view on chaptalization? Actually, I guess if the sugar was grown on the farm, then it's all good, right?originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
I said his silence about winemaking was irrelevant to whether they can chaptalize or not. As for "And how would "winemaking", per se, be bio-dynamic?", there are cellar practices based on propitious (fruit and flower) days, bottling according to phases of the moon, avoiding root and leaf days, etc.
Once the wine is fermenting, what? Steiner wasn't all that concerned. But does that mean that someone else can come along and invent "biodynamic winemaking"?
originally posted by Scott Kraft:
originally posted by Yixin:
originally posted by Scott Kraft:
Yixin,
How does it develop over a few days after opening?
Punctuated equilibria. It shifts, imperceptibly to me, then sometimes there's a sudden leap to freshness when it drops the hot fermentation notes to emerge, chrysalis-like, shiny and showy. Maybe about 36-54 hours after opening?
Why not work with the restaurants on some way of serving it 3 days after opening it?
Paging Levi.
Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
Hey, I still have a bottle of 1979 (pre-BD) Clos de la Coulée de Serrant. Does that count for anything?
Birth year, Y?
Birth year, Y?
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
originally posted by Jeff Connell:
But does that mean that someone else can come along and invent "biodynamic winemaking"?
Yes, someone else can, and many do, in the many strains of psychoanalysis/therapy that claim descent from Freud but contain much that wasn't in Freud. Since Steiner didn't prescribe, anyone can interpret him and hang a shingle on their porch saying "I'm a BD winemaker." Too bad Demeter is demoralized, according to Eric, since certification by a recognized interpreter of Steiner (like a Maria Thun or something) would be a way to ensure some kind of common ground.
Yixin, thanks for the excellent insight above.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Jeff Connell:
But does that mean that someone else can come along and invent "biodynamic winemaking"?
Yes, someone else can, and many do, in the many strains of psychoanalysis/therapy that claim descent from Freud but contain much that wasn't in Freud. Since Steiner didn't prescribe, anyone can interpret him and hang a shingle on their porch saying "I'm a BD winemaker." Too bad Demeter is demoralized, according to Eric, since certification by a recognized interpreter of Steiner (like a Maria Thun or something) would be a way to ensure some kind of common ground.
Yixin, thanks for the excellent insight above.
But once this process starts, there is no longer real meaning to the term. "Psychoananalysis" describes a family resemblance of practices, but hardly anything like a coherent system or theory. When BD becomes that, or if it has become that, it will be or it is pointless to refer to it except as the vaguest of conceptual categories. Asking whether it authorizes or forbids any given practice or practices will be impossible.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
I hear you, but I wouldn't say there is no longer real meaning, just no uniform meaning. Joly, Augé, Rateau, will each come up with their own interpretations, not uniform, but having the family resemblance you describe, and that is something. I agree that it's not possible to say that BD authorizes acid & sugar corrections in the cellar, but neither does it forbid it. In contrast, so-called natural winemaking (as embodied by something like the AAA manifesto) expressly forbids it. Ultimately, winemakers who call themselves BD could be, if so inclined, more permissive than the naturals, as long as their interpretations allowed it.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
I hear you, but I wouldn't say there is no longer real meaning, just no uniform meaning. Joly, Augé, Rateau, will each come up with their own interpretations, not uniform, but having the family resemblance you describe, and that is something. I agree that it's not possible to say that BD authorizes acid & sugar corrections in the cellar, but neither does it forbid it. In contrast, so-called natural winemaking (as embodied by something like the AAA manifesto) expressly forbids it. Ultimately, winemakers who call themselves BD could be, if so inclined, more permissive than the naturals, as long as their interpretations allowed it.
Family resemblance is what you have when you don't have identity. But when you don't have uniform meaning, you don't have any meaning. If x could mean "red" but it could mean "yellow dog at sunset," context may help you determine which thing it means, but when it could mean something, anything or nothing at all, you just give it up as a definitional term. We know roughly what psychotherapists do for a living, but saying someone is a psychotherapist doesn't tell us much more than that. And the real analogy is calling someone a Freudian. If that term can cover Jacques Lacan and Bruno Bettelheim, the only interest in using it anymore is historical. Once being BD is like being Freudian, and anyone can claim the label, it's time to move on. This exchange is starting to make me think that that's the case.