Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
"But when you don't have uniform meaning, you don't have any meaning" is too manichean for me.
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The customer is not always right
- Thread starter Yixin
- Start date
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
"But when you don't have uniform meaning, you don't have any meaning" is too manichean for me.
That's why I followed it with explanations and hedgings. The second to last sentence is the important one.
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Family resemblance is what you have when you don't have identity. [...]
That's good. Your formulation, or established convention?
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Family resemblance is what you have when you don't have identity. [...]
That's good. Your formulation, or established convention?
Wittgenstein, from whom I stole the term.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
Grue or bleen, anyone?originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
"But when you don't have uniform meaning, you don't have any meaning" is too manichean for me.
Scott Kraft
Scott Kraft
originally posted by Yixin:
Unsurprisingly, the 2 returned bottles are much, much better now, 3 days after opening. Well, guess I'll have to drink them.
A shame the customers can’t try them now!
Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
originally posted by Scott Kraft:
originally posted by Yixin:
Unsurprisingly, the 2 returned bottles are much, much better now, 3 days after opening. Well, guess I'll have to drink them.
A shame the customers can’t try them now!
But if that's what it takes to make them show well right now, what's the point of putting them on a restaurant list (unless they will be served by the glass two days after the bottle was opened)? This sounds like a case of the sommelier's ego trumping the requirements of his/her job
John Roberts
John Roberts
Ego? Why egotistical rather than just over-enthusiastic?
Look at all the great wines on restaurant lists being drunk way before their prime (or at least before they've had a chance to oxidise). This spectacularly includes lots of Champagne, all of which would benefit from at least 6-12 months more of bottle age. I personally would prefer to hold most of the wines on my list for another 2-3 years before release, but that's not financially viable.
Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
Yixin -- There's a difference between having a wine that is attractive when young but far from mature, which even Barolo qualifies as these days (not to mention claret, Burgundies, the Champagnes that you mention, and Rhônes), and having a wine that is unpleasant when young, which appears to have been the case with the wine under discussion.
John -- Ego is wanting to have a wine list on paper that looks cool to your colleagues as opposed to one that will actually give pleasure to people. (Which is not to say that I object to the majority of hipster wines on lists that I see around here. But that brings up another point -- when I've recently ordered wines such as those of COS and Occhipinti off wine lists around here, I was asked each time if I knew the wines, and when I said yes, they were delivered without question. Had I said no, I'm sure there would have been some discussion of what the wines were like and whether that was what I wanted to order.)
John -- Ego is wanting to have a wine list on paper that looks cool to your colleagues as opposed to one that will actually give pleasure to people. (Which is not to say that I object to the majority of hipster wines on lists that I see around here. But that brings up another point -- when I've recently ordered wines such as those of COS and Occhipinti off wine lists around here, I was asked each time if I knew the wines, and when I said yes, they were delivered without question. Had I said no, I'm sure there would have been some discussion of what the wines were like and whether that was what I wanted to order.)
To be clear, the 2010 Les Vieux Clos is not unpleasant even when first opened, although it is probably not what one would expect from Savennières of the same vintage. Would it work with simple pike-perch? Perhaps only if it was slathered in a girolles sauce (which obscures the fish, in my view). Would it work with hare, simply roasted? Hell yes. Or a pork chop, rubbed with garlic, ginger and soy sauce? Or oysters, grilled on the shell, sprinkled with scallions? Or Marmite, Pecorino and honey on toast (with the 2010 Les Vieux Clos, the breakfast of champions)?
I think it's fine to send a wine back if one dislikes it (and was not properly warned before ordering), but it's foolishness to allege something (heat damage) when one doesn't understand the wine. So back to my original plea: if you're going to be a narrow-minded, pompous twit when ordering wine, stick to Cloudy Bay or Whispering Angel. Don't be adventurous, and when it backfires, make accusations which are completely unfounded.
Preaching to the choir, I know.
I think it's fine to send a wine back if one dislikes it (and was not properly warned before ordering), but it's foolishness to allege something (heat damage) when one doesn't understand the wine. So back to my original plea: if you're going to be a narrow-minded, pompous twit when ordering wine, stick to Cloudy Bay or Whispering Angel. Don't be adventurous, and when it backfires, make accusations which are completely unfounded.
Preaching to the choir, I know.
Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
originally posted by Yixin:
I think it's fine to send a wine back if one dislikes it (and was not properly warned before ordering)
So it sounds like we agree that it was sommelier malpractice.
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
originally posted by Yixin:
I think it's fine to send a wine back if one dislikes it (and was not properly warned before ordering)
So it sounds like we agree that it was sommelier malpractice.
Personally, I blame the winemaker.
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
originally posted by Yixin:
I think it's fine to send a wine back if one dislikes it (and was not properly warned before ordering)
So it sounds like we agree that it was sommelier malpractice.
I don't know, I was not there to see what transpired, so I cannot comment whether there was ample warning. We could quibble over whether there was a need to open a 2nd bottle, but what's done is done, and the extent of the tragedy is that I've had to drink more Les Vieux Clos than I otherwise would have. I'm too old to worry overmuch about such things; ignorance and foolishness, on the other hand...
originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
originally posted by Yixin:
I think it's fine to send a wine back if one dislikes it (and was not properly warned before ordering)
So it sounds like we agree that it was sommelier malpractice.
Personally, I blame the winemaker.
I presume you have Virginie's e-mail address? Her English is good enough to understand any complaint you might have.
As a chef friend says, "Nobody's doing that!"originally posted by Yixin:
Marmite, Pecorino and honey on toast
originally posted by SFJoe:
As a chef friend says, "Nobody's doing that!"originally posted by Yixin:
Marmite, Pecorino and honey on toast
Umami, salt and sugar (both simple and complex). Just enough acidity to keep it from teetering off balance.
originally posted by Yixin:
originally posted by SFJoe:
As a chef friend says, "Nobody's doing that!"originally posted by Yixin:
Marmite, Pecorino and honey on toast
Umami, salt and sugar (both simple and complex). Just enough acidity to keep it from teetering off balance.
like the "breakfast bruschetta" (grilled sourdough, layered with arugula, thin slices of perfect cantaloupe, and parmesan and topped with poached eggs) I had in LA.