Burgundies shutting down -- a reassessment!

Peter Creasey

Peter Creasey

Peter Creasey
Opinions are rampant on the subject of Burgundies going through a period of shutting down. Such opinions appear to vary depending on whatever one's tastings have indicated...emphasis on "indicated" rather than "proven".

Is the shutting down phenomenon of Burgundies incontrovertible?

If yes...

1) Is judging the shutting down syndrome a seat of the pants exercise?

or

2) Is there any hard (read: conclusive) evidence that Burgundies go through a shut down phase?

. . . . . Pete
 
Tom, Interesting parallel!

I wouldn't have thought that sentiments here would be so solidly convinced in favor of the shutting down syndrome.

Maybe you're right!

. . . . . . Pete
 
Is there any conclusive evidence that any wine goes through a "shut down" period? I don't have any doubts that many wines, whether Burgundy, Bordeaux, or others, nor do I have any doubt that there are no rules involved, only loose generalities. But my conclusions are based mostly on personal experiences and those of others. I have observed a lot of wines that are expressive on release, then seem dumb, then become expressive again. Some, mostly Burgs, go through this cycle more than once in their lives. Others don't. Some close up completely for a long time, such as '82 and '86 Mouton. Others just become more muted, but even when closed have some expression. I don't find it uncommon for some vintages to have some correlation for at least some closed periods, but even then there are a lot of exceptions.

That said, I'm not sure how you prove any of it, I've just obseved the phenomonon enough that anyone claiming that a particular region or vintage ever shuts down would have a tough burden to meet before they convinced me that the claim was correct.
 
Pete,
I'm with Mike on this one.
Never read or heard of any objective evidence of the phenomenon but am convinced it occurs regularly in a large number of wines that are meant to age.
FWIW, I made a pinot that was bottled in August of 2011 and has been changing back and forth on an almost monthly basis. Ain't no 'splainin' it.
Best, Jim
 
originally posted by Peter Creasey:

Tom, Interesting parallel!

I wouldn't have thought that sentiments here would be so solidly convinced in favor of the shutting down syndrome.

Maybe you're right!

. . . . . . Pete
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I think there are likely to be more clergy who question the existence of god.
 
originally posted by Florida Jim: I made a pinot that was bottled in August of 2011 and has been changing back and forth on an almost monthly basis.
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Jim, I assume that you felt that this Pinot was initially fine for a period of time before the vacillations (shutting down??) began to occur thereby ruling out simple youthfulness.

If so, that's good data as it would seem to rule out reasons such as variations in provenance, bottles, palate, etc.

Down the road, it will be interesting to see if the subject Pinot stabilizes so that the non-permanent shutting down phenomenon can be validated with this particular bottling.

. . . . . Pete
 
Shutting down probably isn't quite the right term. I think most ageable Burgundies are unenjoyable for a long period in their adolescence but I wouldn't always call it shut down. Shut-down to me refers to a very specific thing, also known as a "dumb" period, when the wine smells like a glass of water and doesn't taste like much of anything besides tannin and acid. Many Burgundies that are in that difficult adolescent zone are no fun to drink but don't fit that description; they have flavor and aroma but they are unpleasant, listless, or bitter. I think that phase should be distinguished from shutting down because it's still possible to glean certain things about the wine that are totally withheld from us in the truly dumb/shut down phase, which is rarer than people assume.
 
originally posted by Mike Evans:
Is there any conclusive evidence that any wine goes through a "shut down" period? I don't have any doubts that many wines, whether Burgundy, Bordeaux, or others, nor do I have any doubt that there are no rules involved, only loose generalities. But my conclusions are based mostly on personal experiences and those of others. I have observed a lot of wines that are expressive on release, then seem dumb, then become expressive again. Some, mostly Burgs, go through this cycle more than once in their lives. Others don't. Some close up completely for a long time, such as '82 and '86 Mouton. Others just become more muted, but even when closed have some expression. I don't find it uncommon for some vintages to have some correlation for at least some closed periods, but even then there are a lot of exceptions.
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right
 
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

that difficult adolescent zone ... [where] they have flavor and aroma but they are unpleasant, listless, or bitter.
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yeah - they are shut down (although I don't get bitter often - more likely tart or sour because the acid is showing but the fruit is not).
 
I wonder how much of this variation in the taste of a given wine is due to the very variable amount of oxygen getting through the different corks, rather than the wine itself going through any kind of change.
 
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Shutting down probably isn't quite the right term. I think most ageable Burgundies are unenjoyable for a long period in their adolescence but I wouldn't always call it shut down. Shut-down to me refers to a very specific thing, also known as a "dumb" period, when the wine smells like a glass of water and doesn't taste like much of anything besides tannin and acid. Many Burgundies that are in that difficult adolescent zone are no fun to drink but don't fit that description; they have flavor and aroma but they are unpleasant, listless, or bitter. I think that phase should be distinguished from shutting down because it's still possible to glean certain things about the wine that are totally withheld from us in the truly dumb/shut down phase, which is rarer than people assume.
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These distinctions are all fine and good, but why can't they be part of the broad concept known as 'shut down', which is not exactly a limited technical term.
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
Or the effects of dissolved oxygen.
Best, Jim
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Dissolved oxygen would be the same for different bottles of the same wine, but that might explain why some wines behave differently from similar lots.

I have had several producers move from cork to screwcaps, and the difference in general consistency is dramatic.
 
As has been cited here, there are numerous causes of variable judgements of different bottles of a wine during its life span. It seems too handy to attribute these variances to a nebulous concept such as a time period in a wine's life span labeled as shutting down.

While acknowledging my atrophied palate, I'm a bit dubious of the shutting down concept as it is commonly applied. Still open to discussion, but dubious!

My $.02 worth! The shutting down concept may be over applied, both in terms of frequency and exactitude.

. . . . . . Pete
 
I forgot to mention the "This wine sucks, but I paid a lot for it and it got a big score from Critic X so it must just be shut down. I mean, with this much extraction and 16.1% alcohol, it should age well, right?" explanation.
 
The argument is made sometimes that youthful fruity esters hydrolyze or esterify sugars after a few years, and that tertiary freeing of things from unsmelly glycosides happens on a much longer timeframe to fill out wines.

But anyone who drinks 7 y.o. Barolo or Vouvray or etc. has had many wines that are shut down.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
The argument is made sometimes that youthful fruity esters hydrolyze or esterify sugars after a few years, and that tertiary freeing of things from unsmelly glycosides happens on a much longer timeframe to fill out wines.

But anyone who drinks 7 y.o. Barolo or Vouvray or etc. has had many wines that are shut down.
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or any Donnhoff between ~4-10 years old.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
The argument is made sometimes that youthful fruity esters hydrolyze or esterify sugars after a few years, and that tertiary freeing of things from unsmelly glycosides happens on a much longer timeframe to fill out wines.

But anyone who drinks 7 y.o. Barolo or Vouvray or etc. has had many wines that are shut down.
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Hydrolyze, unsmelly glycosides and esterify; I love it when you talk dirty.
Best, Jim
 
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