Is my sourdough spoofed?

originally posted by Jason D:
I'm under the impression that a sourdough starter will pretty quickly begin to reflect the environment it is being grown in for exactly the reasons SFJoe mentions. So it might have been non-native the first few days, but after feeding it for a little while it will reflect the microbes that grow best in your current environment. Its why selling starters is a little bit of a scam. I'd point you towards old sourdough threads on eGullet - lots of papers from microbiologists on the subject were posted there.
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I have insufficient science to contest this, but it isn't my experience that starter always becomes where it comes from. The first I ever used was one of those packets you buy in Joe's courtesy title. It was clearly designed to produce a particular kind of sour flavor and it didn't lose it. Maybe it was the real spoof. I've long since been making my own. When I moved from Alexandria to DC, I brought a starter with me and it continued on in its own mode. All starters change to some extent every time you use them, of course, but they aren't immediately overcome with the local population. Each one has its own characteristics. That's why I've chosen to reseed some.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Jason D:
I'd point you towards old sourdough threads on eGullet - lots of papers from microbiologists on the subject were posted there.
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Please do.
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I'm not Jason but if one types "sourdough starter microbiology" into the eG search engine one gets this thread: click

I also found this short specific one: click
 
Well now that I said that about those papers I can't find them. Maybe it was "The Fresh Loaf" but their search tool is not so useful. Thanks for posting those threads.

I suggested to my wife an outdoor oven could be a compelling argument for a move to the 'burbs. She was not convinced.

I'm not sure Alexandria VA to DC proper is a big enough of a change (unless you meant another Alexandria). Was thinking more like the move to France. Also I'm sure its possible for a a good strong starter to be pretty stable in a new environment. If you were to re-start a dormant culture (like the gray thing I was looking at this morning in my fridge) I think you'd be more likely to see a change.
 
originally posted by Jason D:

I'm not sure Alexandria VA to DC proper is a big enough of a change (unless you meant another Alexandria).
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Sure it is - it had to cross the Potomac Ocean.
 
I'm going back to the flour. There's a hell of a lot more spoofulation going on in any enriched flour, whether it's unbleached, bread or old fashioned bleached white, than there would be courtesy of some stray microbiota from a trip across the pond. My suspicion is the your french flour has an ingredient list that looks more like this:

Photo_on_2010-10-25_at_20.42.jpg
 
originally posted by Ken Schramm:
I'm going back to the flour. There's a hell of a lot more spoofulation going on in any enriched flour, whether it's unbleached, bread or old fashioned bleached white, than there would be courtesy of some stray microbiota from a trip across the pond. My suspicion is the your french flour has an ingredient list that looks more like this:

Photo_on_2010-10-25_at_20.42.jpg
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My unbleached American Safeway flour's ingredient list does contain barley flour, though not the barley powder fillay referred to. That will surely create a difference, as does my using rye flour or whole wheat for that matter, but I'm not sure why it's spoof. The enriched part I assume refers to things like niacin and iron. Are those things really going to change the breadmaking process? There's nothing else there.

I should say that my experience with French flour is that you need more of it in proportion to the liquid you use. I've always assumed that was because of the heat in Provence in the summer which creates rampant rising, but, I'm happy to be informed differently, by the chemists in the house.
 
Maybe my interpretation is different than others, but the chemicals they enrich with - iron, folic acid, niacin, pyradoxine, thiamine, riboflavin, calcium, magnesium, and pantothenic acid - are a lot of the same things that are in the micronutrient fermentation aids that can (insert your own value judgment here) be described as spoofulating, interventionist agents. The same vitamins they put in there to aid in our metabolism are really useful kick starters for yeasts and lactos. I kind of look at it as our opening the bottle, pouring a glass and setting on the end table, instead of making the yeast go down to the cellar and fend for themselves. Ironically, flour processors add them to unbleached flours that were theoretically never stripped of them in the first place.
 
I think the water needed is related to the flour's moisture content, rather than metabolic rate. In a dryer climate, more water must be added to the flour, in order to create a sponge of similar thickness.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

I should say that my experience with French flour is that you need more of it in proportion to the liquid you use. I've always assumed that was because of the heat in Provence in the summer which creates rampant rising, but, I'm happy to be informed differently, by the chemists in the house.
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French flour also has a much higher ash content and a lower % of protein than US flour. They mill different wheats and refine the flour differently. Protein content and hydration levels are related to one another. A higher protein % can take a higher hydration ratio and still hold its shape and create a nice open crumb.
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
I think the water needed is related to the flour's moisture content, rather than metabolic rate. In a dryer climate, more water must be added to the flour, in order to create a sponge of similar thickness.
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I expressed myself badly: one needs more flour and less water in Provence and this despite the fact that their climate is very dry indeed these days. So one would think one would need more water as you say, but in fact I found I needed more flour in proportion to water. Maybe there's something about French flour that makes it moister, but I didn't check ingredients.
 
When I read your question, I thought this thread would be about the many ways in which many commercial bakeries make fake sourdough. I have run across recipes for the home baker to make fake sourdough which involved using beer left out for two days and adding a touch of something sour, like white vinegar.
 
When I registered on this site many years ago, under the old board name IIRC, I registered as F.Sonicsmith. Yes, I do know George and Kim. Hedgehog? Alan Bree? My real name is Mitch Tallan. Sorry. If I should re-register under my real name, I don't mind. I might post here again in three years time based on past contributions.
 
originally posted by F.SonicSmith:
If I should re-register under my real name, I don't mind.
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Your real name is available to those who look.

You were legitimately registered.

Don't worry about it.
 
Throw away all but one teaspoon of the old black starter and build it up from there. It's amazing how quickly it will come back to life.
 
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