What do people drink with sushi?

originally posted by Joel Stewart:
I think if the sushi is good to great quality, then nothing is needed to "enhance" it, except something to wet the whistle when desired.
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Couldn't much the same be said for white asparagus on its own? The dry Muscat isn't really "needed", but adds new dimensions to the experience.

I understand Thor's comment, and am often happy to stay with the traditional tea whistle-wetter. But I've had some great sushi and wine combinations over the years, and I think it unfortunate to beg off exploring further simply because historical circumstance has conspired to make wine and sushi somewhat ill at ease sitting on a table (or countertop) together.

Cheers,
 
I don't disagree with you there, Bruce, in principal at least...although I've yet to meet a white asparagus that compares to a nice fat akagai. And I'm not discouraging looking for wine/sushi pairings that work. We enjoy wines with (at least) sashimi, since that's something we have at home more often than sushi. I was just highlighing the fact that there do exist lovely options already in place (at least at estalbishments with a decent sake list) which do work....options that some wine lovers who haven't explored yet might find to their liking as pairing partners for sushi and sashimi. It doesn't always have to be wine.
 
Couldn't much the same be said for white asparagus on its own? The dry Muscat isn't really "needed", but adds new dimensions to the experience.
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No, but the difference is that after one eats a bite of white asparagus and drinks some muscat d'Alsace, one's next bite is going to be: white asparagus with some muscat d'Alsace.

A wine/food match at the sushi bar that's terrific for one bite might be terrible with the next. Which is why I'm left with three choices that, to me, seem better than trying to have one elevated experience at the expense of all the rest: neutral/intermezzo, LCD (generally OK with everything), or personal apathy (drink what I like within reason, and don't care so much about the match). Obviously, my chances of success are improved by making certain smart choices, or if someone like Levi has made them for me, and I'm unlikely to be drinking Cornas. But trying to find a really great match with everything is, unless the sushi chef has been similarly focused on the wine, a low-hit rate activity. At least for me.
 
I am very partial to sparkling wine with sushi. Depending on the type of sushi and my mood, it will either be something pure and "linear" from Cramant or Le Mesnil (such as Lilbert's Perle, a Diebolt-Vallois vintage, or Pierre Peters' Extra Brut) or something a little more technicolour (Jean Lallement, Rodez, Ledru, Billiot...).
I find that a good petillant de Loire can also be a good match sometimes, such as Jacky Blot's Zero, Baumard's Corail, and a number of others.
 
originally posted by Thor:
No, but the difference is that after one eats a bite of white asparagus and drinks some muscat d'Alsace, one's next bite is going to be: white asparagus with some muscat d'Alsace.

A wine/food match at the sushi bar that's terrific for one bite might be terrible with the next. Which is why I'm left with three choices that, to me, seem better than trying to have one elevated experience at the expense of all the rest: neutral/intermezzo, LCD (generally OK with everything), or personal apathy (drink what I like within reason, and don't care so much about the match).
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Admittedly it's a difficult call.
I'd propose a fourth way: that of working with the chef to provide a wine-friendly structure and progression to the meal so as to avoid the problem you outline.
There's a common type of seasonal menu in Japanese restaurants called "tzukushi", which can probably be translated approximately as "variations on a theme".
Pairing that concept with a progression from lighter to deeper, richer you get something analogous to a European-styled course menu, which should allow for some great wine and food matches (though your aversion to some raw foods matched with wine might render the whole thing moot).

Of course, when you go this route you end up asking yourself "Is this sushi"?
But the answer to that question obviously varies with the individual.

Cheers,
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
I don't disagree with you there, Bruce, in principal at least...although I've yet to meet a white asparagus that compares to a nice fat akagai. And I'm not discouraging looking for wine/sushi pairings that work. We enjoy wines with (at least) sashimi, since that's something we have at home more often than sushi. I was just highlighing the fact that there do exist lovely options already in place (at least at estalbishments with a decent sake list) which do work....options that some wine lovers who haven't explored yet might find to their liking as pairing partners for sushi and sashimi. It doesn't always have to be wine.
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Joel:

Re: "lovely options"... I really don't find sake adds anything to the sushi experience. At best it comes across as a sip of something soft to cleanse the palate.
And I keep getting grief from my sushi "tsu" friends (and the chefs at the sushiya I frequent) who insist that sake is inappropriate with sushi.

Regards,
 
Bruce, sake is any more inappropriate a pairing substance than wine?

I'm probably pushing the sake point more than it needs to be pushed, true, but let's just say that for those who want something more than tea, it's typically beer and/or sake that's offered, and what I find many sakes have over most wines (not all, of course)is their ability to be enjoyed alongside raw fish foods without eliciting the fishy-ness aspect in the aftertaste. It may or may not enhance the flavors, but it certainly can be enjoyed alongside.
 
originally posted by Bruce G.: And I keep getting grief from my sushi "tsu" friends (and the chefs at the sushiya I frequent) who insist that sake is inappropriate with sushi.
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In the end, though, I can understand this: the itamae wants you to focus on what they've made individually for you with their hands...and what they've ostensibly trained for years to be good at. For them, that should be all you need to have a satisfactory gustatorial experience.
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
Bruce, sake is any more inappropriate a pairing substance than wine?
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The objection to sake seems to be twofold, aesthetic and societal.
Gustatorily, most of those I know argue that sake really doesn't add much to sushi (as opposed to sashimi) since it adding rice flavors and fermentation notes to a dish that already has that in sufficient amounts. Some have also complained that the high alcohol tends to interfere with the proper enjoyment of the sushi being offered.

Societally, I'd say that a lot of Japanese folks consider combining sushi and sake as.... uncouth (for want of a better word). The reasons for THAT are cultural and may be in the process of evaporating.
But I still get a lot of grief for it if I try to mix the two.

So, to answer your question: yes, in some ways sake is less appropriate a partner for sushi than wine.
I can't say that I've ever had a sushi itamae tell me that it was wrong to have wine with sushi, though a few have been dismissive of the pairing. On the other hand, though, I've been told by several of them that having nihonshu was just that: wrong.
 
Interesting, Bruce, on a few levels. I have not heard the "societal" angle before...but I'm surprised to hear "a lot" of Japanese thinking the pairing "uncouth", and yet still sake is on the menu. Or maybe you are referring to those Japanese you go to eat sushi with? (And anyway, it sounds like you are still trying, given the grief you are citing.)

For economic reasons, we don't go out to eat sushi very often (and I mean quality sushi...plus I prefer sashimi anyway) so I don't really have the chances you seem to have getting into the deeper aspects of sushi with real sushi freaks and chefs. On an aside: the best I've ever had was at a place called Suehiro in Shimizu...recommended by a Japanese friend who, having traveled all over Japan several times, eating his way around, told me that they had the best maguro in the country. I ate their a few times when I had the money,(beer and sake served) and we plugged the chef with various questions about the fish...never got to asking about pairings and other unspoken rules. The quality of the offerings was so good that I wouldn't eat sushi or sashimi afterwards for months, for fear of destroying the memory of flavors...

Back to personal prefs....I think there is a 5th way: for those who really want to explore what works for them...order take out and open bottles of whatever you want at home and go for it.
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
originally posted by Bruce G.:
...having nihonshu was just that: wrong.
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I'm sorry if I've missed this somewhere in here but, please, what do the itamae recommend as proper beverages to accompany sushi?
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Tea, for the most part.
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
Interesting, Bruce, on a few levels. I have not heard the "societal" angle before...but I'm surprised to hear "a lot" of Japanese thinking the pairing "uncouth", and yet still sake is on the menu. Or maybe you are referring to those Japanese you go to eat sushi with? (And anyway, it sounds like you are still trying, given the grief you are citing.)
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The sake on the menu is for the sashimi, the broiled tidbits, etc.
Or for those who are just interested in drinking (regardless of the food being presented).

Could be just my subset of experiences here.
If I remember correctly, you outrank me on the senpai-kohai scale, so I've no doubt you've got scads of experience on this as well.
But it doesn't seem to be a quirk of my regular drinking group... I've been told as much throughout Japan. In many forms, some subtle, some not so subtle.

Cheers,
 
originally posted by Bruce G.:
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
Interesting, Bruce, on a few levels. I have not heard the "societal" angle before...but I'm surprised to hear "a lot" of Japanese thinking the pairing "uncouth", and yet still sake is on the menu. Or maybe you are referring to those Japanese you go to eat sushi with? (And anyway, it sounds like you are still trying, given the grief you are citing.)
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The sake on the menu is for the sashimi, the broiled tidbits, etc.
Or for those who are just interested in drinking (regardless of the food being presented).

Could be just my subset of experiences here.
If I remember correctly, you outrank me on the senpai-kohai scale, so I've no doubt you've got scads of experience on this as well.
But it doesn't seem to be a quirk of my regular drinking group... I've been told as much throughout Japan. In many forms, some subtle, some not so subtle.

Cheers,
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Bruce, my experience eating with fairly serious foodies is actually quite limited, but probably telling. My main "teachers" were a handful of small to mid-size company shacho's based in Osaka (which may explain a lot) whose age averaged around mid-60's fifteen yrs ago (which may explain even more)...they were a group that had been meeting regularly for 20 yrs by the time I met them and we met weekly at a ryotei style restaurant in Moriguchi that one of the members owned. They loved food and they loved sake equally (which probably explains it all)...they got me into funazushi and jizake, among many other amazing tastes and treats, so that sort of kick-started my way of seeing things...no doubt with a heavy slant.
 
I'd propose a fourth way: that of working with the chef to provide a wine-friendly structure and progression to the meal so as to avoid the problem you outline.
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*shrug* I don't pay sushi money for beverage experiences.
 
originally posted by Thor:
*shrug* I don't pay sushi money for beverage experiences.
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Fair enough.
I admire your fiscal discipline.
My beverage experiences resist any attempts to draw monetary boundary lines.

Regards,
 
Oh, I've no discipline. (Sometimes no money, but certainly no discipline.) But that was a very poorly worded sentence on my part. What I mean to say was: if I'm paying sushi money, it's for the sushi, not the beverages. As I noted, I can conceive of a very careful (one sip per bite) beverage program that would be excellent...and would cost just as much as the sushi. I'm unlikely to want to do that because, barring such a program and given my previously-stated feeling that, mostly, the beverage does not enhance what I'm eating, I'd rather just put out the money for the food and save my oenophilia for another, more wine-friendly venue.
 
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