Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
I found it. I saw no need to post it. You're already doing a fine job of making friends and influencing people.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
PD in da house
- Thread starter Sharon Bowman
- Start date
Yes, of course you're right.originally posted by mlawton:
please don't feed the trolls
D. Zylberberg
David Zylberberg
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by D. Zylberberg:
the dogmatic conformity of this board.
As a stylistic point, I would suggest that unifying your audience by thoughtless insult is probably not the way to get them to bend an attentive ear.
It has a very Bill O'Reilly sensibility as a way of opening a discussion.
Except, of course, that the language I used to describe Texier was absolutely no different than that used by the Appalled to describe wines that are implicitly "permitted" targets. If I were inclined, I'm sure I could find some choice morsels from most of you about Mollydooker or Kosta Browne. The only aspect of what I wrote that made it a "thoughtless insult" rather than usual Internet rhetoric was that it went after a sacred cow.
It's an ingroup-outgroup thing. If we're playing cite to the stupid-not-really-applicable-but-makes-me-sound-smarter-academic-papers game, see Tajfel and Turner.
originally posted by D. Zylberberg:
Jesus!I hadn't even noticed you all had gone so far as to google-stalk my professional profile. Creepy, but not as creepy as the dogmatic conformity of this board.
-1 points for failing to turn up evidence of my past life as a geologist. A more determined googler could've found my masters thesis or something equally embarassing.
Must not have worked out if you are embarrassed of your masters thesis. I think mine holds up pretty well.
originally posted by D. Zylberberg:
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by D. Zylberberg:
the dogmatic conformity of this board.
As a stylistic point, I would suggest that unifying your audience by thoughtless insult is probably not the way to get them to bend an attentive ear.
It has a very Bill O'Reilly sensibility as a way of opening a discussion.
Except, of course, that the language I used to describe Texier was absolutely no different than that used by the Appalled to describe wines that are implicitly "permitted" targets. If I were inclined, I'm sure I could find some choice morsels from most of you about Mollydooker or Kosta Browne. The only aspect of what I wrote that made it a "thoughtless insult" rather than usual Internet rhetoric was that it went after a sacred cow.
It's an ingroup-outgroup thing. If we're playing cite to the stupid-not-really-applicable-but-makes-me-sound-smarter-academic-papers game, see Tajfel and Turner.
No, what people object to is that you don't know what you are talking about.
Peter Creasey
Peter Creasey
originally posted by D. Zylberberg: I could find some choice morsels from most of you about Mollydooker or Kosta Browne.
David, Elaborate please as to how you can compare Texier wines to those of Mollydooker and/or Kosta Browne.
Thanks!
. . . . . Pete
This is pretty simple, let's put money where our internet mouths are.
Same wines, different venue (let's say Lyon), one year hence. If your rank ordering and notes are anywhere close to the original tasting (we'll have to agree on what the standards* are), I will pay for your flights, accommodations and meals. If not, you pay for my flights, accommodation and meals. I can be quite flexible with respect to timing. Propose a second if you wish to double down on the wager.
*Note that if your standards are insufficiently tight, you're essentially admitting that drawing conclusions from that tasting was a pretty dumb and baseless thing to do. Rank-ordering in my experience is tough once you have more than 2 wines.
Same wines, different venue (let's say Lyon), one year hence. If your rank ordering and notes are anywhere close to the original tasting (we'll have to agree on what the standards* are), I will pay for your flights, accommodations and meals. If not, you pay for my flights, accommodation and meals. I can be quite flexible with respect to timing. Propose a second if you wish to double down on the wager.
*Note that if your standards are insufficiently tight, you're essentially admitting that drawing conclusions from that tasting was a pretty dumb and baseless thing to do. Rank-ordering in my experience is tough once you have more than 2 wines.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
OK, I take it back. He hasn't to my knowledge started killing babies or selling nuclear weapons to terrorists, but he does show an enthusiasm for sinking to the lowest level of rhetoric going on here. So by all means, you guys, feel free to play rhetoric limbo with him if you want.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
Fess up, Other Prof! Don't you find it at least a teeny bit refreshing to see such a vivacious specimen of esophageal athlete's foot?originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
So by all means, you guys, feel free to play rhetoric limbo with him if you want.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Fess up, Other Prof! Don't you find it at least a teeny bit refreshing to see such a vivacious specimen of esophageal athlete's foot?originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
So by all means, you guys, feel free to play rhetoric limbo with him if you want.
I like train wrecks as much as the next guy. And when the gossip pages report on train wreck girls, maybe the next two or three guys (there's nothing like the latest dopiness about Lindsay Lohan or Kim Kardashian to jolt me awake in the morning). But I have to say, the stupidity of this one has ceased to amuse me. One could have an argument about how much one liked the style or even just the in the moment taste of various Texier wines, but nothing going on here can't be found with even more brainless sprezzatura on the Berserker pages.
Oxymoron, no?originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
brainless sprezzatura
D. Zylberberg
David Zylberberg
originally posted by Yixin:
This is pretty simple, let's put money where our internet mouths are.
Same wines, different venue (let's say Lyon), one year hence. If your rank ordering and notes are anywhere close to the original tasting (we'll have to agree on what the standards* are), I will pay for your flights, accommodations and meals. If not, you pay for my flights, accommodation and meals. I can be quite flexible with respect to timing. Propose a second if you wish to double down on the wager.
*Note that if your standards are insufficiently tight, you're essentially admitting that drawing conclusions from that tasting was a pretty dumb and baseless thing to do. Rank-ordering in my experience is tough once you have more than 2 wines.
You did notice that my experience with the Texier wines extends far beyond that one tasting, right? I've never had them with age - which apparently is necessary to enjoy them properly (except for the bottles sealed under artificial closure, which need to be enjoyed young). But I've tasted a fair number of bottles over the years (if I had to guesstimate, ~10), in different contexts - the tasting was just the cherry on the sundae, as it were. I'm sure there are folks here that argue that 10 young bottles is hardly enough to form a view on a producer, but by that logic, you can't form a view on a producer unless you're ITB or a fan of the producer, because how else are you going to taste more than a case worth of examples?
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
originally posted by SFJoe:
Oxymoron, no?originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
brainless sprezzatura
You take the studied quality out of the nonchalance and you are left with mindless enthusiasm. I would say it is a constraining predicate. But I take your point.
originally posted by D. Zylberberg: I'm sure there are folks here that argue that 10 young bottles is hardly enough to form a view on a producer, but by that logic, you can't form a view on a producer unless you're ITB or a fan of the producer, because how else are you going to taste more than a case worth of examples?
You can form all the views you want.
But it helps to recognize the limits of one's knowledge.
D. Zylberberg
David Zylberberg
originally posted by VLM:
No, what people object to is that you don't know what you are talking about.
You know, I'll take hits on my trolling rhetorical style or my lack of experience with older bottles or minimal experience with seeing how wines age (given my age, the first vintage which I've tasted from the start is 1999, and back then I wasn't exactly buying the choicest producers). But I emphatically do know what I am talking about, insofar as someone my age who is not ITB can know what they're talking about (i.e., I dont have the tasting experience of a guy who's 50 with a deep cellar).
So query what this means. Either you parrot what the older guy says, in which case you're showing a precocious, sophisticated palate, or you challenge it, in which case you don't know what you're talking about.
But in a world where there are no wine tests or wine degrees (or rather, there are, but very few people actually take them or have them), saying "You don't know what you're talking about" is meaningless. It's just a way to say "I so thoroughly disagree with you that I will throw poop by saying you know nothing"
Jay Miller
Jay Miller
originally posted by D. Zylberberg:
You did notice that my experience with the Texier wines extends far beyond that one tasting, right? I've never had them with age - which apparently is necessary to enjoy them properly (except for the bottles sealed under artificial closure, which need to be enjoyed young). But I've tasted a fair number of bottles over the years (if I had to guesstimate, ~10), in different contexts - the tasting was just the cherry on the sundae, as it were. I'm sure there are folks here that argue that 10 young bottles is hardly enough to form a view on a producer, but by that logic, you can't form a view on a producer unless you're ITB or a fan of the producer, because how else are you going to taste more than a case worth of examples?
The issue, as I see it, being that you didn't therefore conclude that you don't care for the style but rather that he is making bad wine and lacks integrity as a winemaker because he is spreading himself too thinly.
By doing so you manage to insult not only Eric (who many people here regard as a friend) but also all those people who enjoy his wines, saying that groupthink is the only reason we like them.
I, for one, think that he's one of the top wine makers in the Rhone and one of 3 that I'll buy with any regularity. And I'm pretty sure I'm basing that on my history of drinking his wines on and off since the 1999 vintage.
D. Zylberberg
David Zylberberg
originally posted by Jay Miller:
The issue, as I see it, being that you didn't therefore conclude that you don't care for the style but rather that he is making bad wine and lacks integrity as a winemaker because he is spreading himself too thinly.
By doing so you manage to insult not only Eric (who many people here regard as a friend) but also all those people who enjoy his wines, saying that groupthink is the only reason we like them.
I, for one, think that he's one of the top wine makers in the Rhone and one of 3 that I'll buy with any regularity. And I'm pretty sure I'm basing that on my history of drinking his wines on and off since the 1999 vintage.
I don't think he lacks integrity as a winemaker! This is part of the problem - I don't see making wine as something that can be done with more or less integrity. Maybe its craft, maybe its manufacturing, but integrity? Short of taking cotes du rhone and slapping a cote rotie label on it (which I think 99% of winemakers, including Texier, would never, ever, ever do), then isn't everyone making wine with integrity? Saying that Eric Texier wines suck isn't saying that Eric Texier sucks. Saying that I think that the social relationships he builds with influential "tastemaker" types makes the wines quasi-immune to serious criticism isn't attacking his integrity - I don't think savvy marketing is "dishonest". And for what it's worth, I'm an equal opportunity offender here - I've made the same critiques, publically, about Rhys/Kevin Harvey, and, privately, about Maison Ilan/Ray Walker.
D. Zylberberg
David Zylberberg
originally posted by SFJoe:
Comrades, YHBT.
Look, lord know I love to troll, but I was not trolling when I posted the Texier suck thread. In fact, I specifically posted it on berserkers, and not here, because I didn't want it to be pure trolling.
Trolling is when you don't have a point and you're just posting to get people agitated. I have a point - you may really disagree with my point and you may think I'm an idiot, but I'm not trolling you.