PD in da house

I fell asleep a few nights ago musing on the notion that I could have made a much tougher case against Eric if I put my mind to it.

I don't have the urge (and I value most of his wines very much), but there is a serious case to be made against many (almost any?) winemakers on aesthetic, methodological, or other grounds. I'm not against such discussions. Actually, I love them if they are well done. Really, there are well-intentioned winemakers from many camps that produce horrific wines. And there are aesthetic choices that one could challenge. Or inadvertence that one could criticize. I think a robust discussion of any of this in many cases would be fine. I don't think winemakers get a free pass even if they work hard and try their best. There are restaurants with terrible but diligent chefs, for instance. Good actors turn in bad performances, good directors make bad movies, great hitters strike out. This is all grounds for legitimate discussion by consumers in my view. You don't have to crucify them, but to pick an email from my inbox today, you could totally make an argument that young Ogier's wines are a big gap down from his father's. That is a discussion worth having. Loudly, so the guy can hear you and maybe one day think about what you've said.

But making such a case requires an argument on the merits. Not a preemptive pre-aggrieved assault on the audience and the legitimacy of their current opinions. Not a mere urge or twitch or impulse or minor cerebral infarct, or an individual wine that didn't please. Or, the Noodle forfend, a ridiculous parody of an experiment that is then generalized to mean something that it just can't.

I do not agree with those who would spare people criticism just because they are diligent or sincere. Spare them criticism as people, or parents, or pet owners, sure. But not for their luxury consumer goods. Those have to pass a higher bar.

From time to time, I've had to put my various works up in public one way or another, and they have on occasion drawn vigorous and informed criticism. For my part, I was always happy to have it in public and in person, because it gave me a chance to answer. Much worse the whisper, the shrug, the lack of understanding or the uncorrected misinterpretation. Bring it on. I hope that winemakers would feel the same way, even if their marketing arms might not.

But really, you have to make a case. A decent case. Not just an impulse, but a reason. Better yet, a persuasive case that might, one day, change the way that person or someone else makes or thinks about wine. Not just "I had an opinion today!" It's like a 3 year old saying, "I pooped today!" Well, good for you, sweetie, and be sure to wash your hands, but you haven't made an important contribution to alter the state of the world.

No free rides for anyone, IMO, winemakers or wine drinkers. Make an argument, have persuasive reasons, or prepare to lose.
 
Hey Joe,
So here I am, trying to be calm and reasonable and . . . avuncular (who says I don't listen) and you go and dial it in. The next cup of coffee is on me.
Well done.
Best, Jim
 
originally posted by D. Zylberberg:


originally posted by Florida Jim:
David,
Please, note the below post.
Have you a response?
Do you think it worthy of one?
Best, Jim

originally posted by Brézème:


Merde! Making one bottle of 2010 CR that ended 8th in a blind tasting makes me a person that sucks.
On est peu de chose. Ouais bien peu de chose...

I think its a precise example of what I'm trying to convey - the conflation of the man and the wine distorts criticism/debate about the wine. When someone says Rombauer sucks, they dont mean that Mr. Rombauer, whoever he is, sucks, they mean the wine sucks. When I say "Does Texier suck?", I mean that I think the wine may suck, not anything regarding Mr. Texier. And of course, I didn't just base my post off of one wine in a blind tasting, but I've spent enough time batting down strawmen to not waste more time there.

Dear M. Zilberberg,

I have the feeling that you are not being honest here.
I have the feeling that your post had ALL to do with me, or more precisely the fact that I post and have real friends on various boards, especially here,
I have the feeling that you would want me to stay in the shade when I have something to say about the wine world. I shouldn't be a wine lover myself since I chose to be ITB, right?
I have the feeling that you don't really care if my wines are good or bad. I think it is more important to you that I make Macon AND Chateauneuf. This is a fabulous occasion for you to assert that you KNOW that it is impossible to do decent wines from so far away places.

And finally I doubt that wine is a true passion for you. Your tasting notes (rare on WB and totally inexistant here) are mostly negative and showing a deep lack of knowledge about the most important facts that makes a terroir or a vintage, focusing generaly on gossip or reputation of growers.
Your passion is to show off by trolling and being "à contre courant" by principle.
It is a choice of way of living. I don't envy you.

Eric Texier
Vigneron
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
But making such a case requires an argument on the merits. Not a preemptive pre-aggrieved assault on the audience and the legitimacy of their current opinions. Not a mere urge or twitch or impulse or minor cerebral infarct, or an individual wine that didn't please. Or, the Noodle forfend, a ridiculous parody of an experiment that is then generalized to mean something that it just can't.

But the narrative you (pl.) have built about that post being an impulse is simply not true. There's no idea I've posted in this thread or over at berserkers that I haven't discussed with folks in person at tastings over months (maybe even folks posting in this thread?). And there's virtually a doppleganger of this thread over on berserkers re: Rhy/Kevin Harvey from months ago; none of this is new. In particular, the tasting is kind of a red herring, b/c its just one of several experiences I've had with Texier. I thought it had some weight with others' b/c it was blind, but if the tasting was totally illegtimate, that wouldn't change my view - it's just dropping a datapoint from a longer record. In retrospect, I wouldn't have even brought it up - nothing but a distraction.
 
Dear M. Zilberberg,

And finally I doubt that wine is a true passion for you. Your tasting notes (rare on WB and totally inexistant here) are mostly negative and showing a deep lack of knowledge about the most important facts that makes a terroir or a vintage, focusing generaly on gossip or reputation of growers.
Your passion is to show off by trolling and being "à contre courant" by principle.
It is a choice of way of living. I don't envy you.

Eric Texier
Vigneron

My public tasting notes reflect what I think is interesting; i.e., not consensus. And I'm not sure how you come off telling me that wine is not a "passion" for me, other than just throwing stones. (Though I'm not sure I wouldn't do the same if the tables were turned.) Also, ig wine wasn't amy passion, I don't think it would make my views any less legitimate.

But, it absolutely, totally, could-not-be-more-so a passion for me, probably almost as much as it is for you. Sad you can't see that.
 
originally posted by D. Zylberberg:
Dear M. Zilberberg,

And finally I doubt that wine is a true passion for you. Your tasting notes (rare on WB and totally inexistant here) are mostly negative and showing a deep lack of knowledge about the most important facts that makes a terroir or a vintage, focusing generaly on gossip or reputation of growers.
Your passion is to show off by trolling and being "à contre courant" by principle.
It is a choice of way of living. I don't envy you.

Eric Texier
Vigneron

My public tasting notes reflect what I think is interesting; i.e., not consensus. And I'm not sure how you come off telling me that wine is not a "passion" for me, other than just throwing stones. (Though I'm not sure I wouldn't do the same if the tables were turned.) Also, ig wine wasn't amy passion, I don't think it would make my views any less legitimate.

But, it absolutely, totally, could-not-be-more-so a passion for me, probably almost as much as it is for you. Sad you can't see that.
You're quitting your day job for selling wine or making it?
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
The beast will not starve here. I'm with MLawton, et al.

They seem to be entering some sort of attempted rehabilitation phase. Barking up the wrong tree, IMHO, but maybe I'm missing some cues.
 
But did I learn anything, is the question.

Anyway--I interrupt this post to say that I HAVE CREATED THE LONGEST THREAD ON WD EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER!!!!!

(With apologies to BJ.)
 
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
But did I learn anything, is the question.

Anyway--I interrupt this post to say that I HAVE CREATED THE LONGEST THREAD ON WD EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER!!!!!

(With apologies to BJ.)

I don't know Sharon, some clueless guy started a 6 page thread about stumbling through the college selection process.
 
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
But did I learn anything, is the question.

Anyway--I interrupt this post to say that I HAVE CREATED THE LONGEST THREAD ON WD EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER!!!!!

(With apologies to BJ.)

Well played, mademoiselle!

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by Bill Lundstrom:
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
But did I learn anything, is the question.

Anyway--I interrupt this post to say that I HAVE CREATED THE LONGEST THREAD ON WD EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER!!!!!

(With apologies to BJ.)

I don't know Sharon, some clueless guy started a 6 page thread about stumbling through the college selection process.

Drat.

Oh, and then there's that soccer thing.

But this one isn't over yet....

Hay, D. Zylberberg, were you a middle child?
 
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