D'Angerville in the Jura

[VLM]

originally posted by SFJoe:
Tissot [ducks, avoiding bricks from Talibs] bottled 3 different Vins Jaunes from 2003 by terroir. The wines are quite distinct, even from such a hot vintage. The details escape me. But you would not confuse the flavors.

Are they also different cepages?

There is clearly a large "terroir of the cellar" (or indeed, barrel) in voile wines from wherever, but I'm sure Liem and Barquin would argue that even as large a territory as Macharnudo is very different from Montilla, say.

I'm sure they would. Isn't that a pretty big geographical difference? I've also heard arguments that it is the terroir of the bodegas having to do with position relative to the sea, elevation etc.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Cory Cartwright:
Talk to anyone and they'll tell you that for instance, the small area behinf Montigny-les-Arsures is the superior terroir for trousseau, while Pupillin is superior for poulsard, and the good winemakers obviously further distinguish plots and yes, don't get them started on marls.

I'm not asking anyone, I'm asking hipster douchebag Jura-philes like you.

Does that folklore jibe with your experience? My only time in the region was for a wedding, so I've never been to the vineyards. I grew up with Puffeney and then Overnoy, the Houillon, then all these others that have started to come to the states like Ganevat, Gahier, etc.

I still enjoy wines like Champagne, Sherry, and Lopez that aren't especially terroir driven, it's just that this is all so hot and it seems like there is rapid expansion. That may signal inferior terroir being planted, it may mean there is more good wine available because terroir isn't as huge a factor as other things.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
From what I've tasted, terroir makes a big difference in Jura wines.

That said, don't assume that all the best terroirs are already planted. That certainly was not the case in Cornas and Saint-Joseph when I began visiting the area in the 1980s and for many years afterward. Many of the best pre-phylloxera plots were left unplanted because the prices the wines brought at the time made the replanting financially uninteresting due to the amount of labor required to replant and to care for the vineyards. Today, many of those areas have been again planted because the prices their wines will bring have increased greatly.

Now that is an interesting prospect.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Tom Glasgow:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
I don't thing you need worry with d'Angerville (note that he's not using his name for the estate). I think he's doing it out of interest and passion and with great respect. I could think of some that might eventually go for profit and publicity, but so far . . . .

seems like change for the worse. A few thoughts:
How large is the Jura? Size would seem to be a factor in determining how quickly outsiders could change it.
The fact that he's an hour away, but only recently discovered the wines, is surprising.
Not sure about zero percent interest rates (seems unlikely banks are doing non-recourse loans on vineyards) but Muscadet could use some capital and publicity.

Can't sell Muscadet for $50.

 

[SFJoe]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by SFJoe:
Tissot [ducks, avoiding bricks from Talibs] bottled 3 different Vins Jaunes from 2003 by terroir. The wines are quite distinct, even from such a hot vintage. The details escape me. But you would not confuse the flavors.

Are they also different cepages?

No. VJ is only savagnin. Though it is sometimes spelled differently.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Tom Glasgow:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
I don't thing you need worry with d'Angerville (note that he's not using his name for the estate). I think he's doing it out of interest and passion and with great respect. I could think of some that might eventually go for profit and publicity, but so far . . . .

seems like change for the worse. A few thoughts:
How large is the Jura? Size would seem to be a factor in determining how quickly outsiders could change it.
The fact that he's an hour away, but only recently discovered the wines, is surprising.
Not sure about zero percent interest rates (seems unlikely banks are doing non-recourse loans on vineyards) but Muscadet could use some capital and publicity.

Can't sell Muscadet for $50.

You know, in Paris a few weeks ago, hipster wines from all over France as well as a surprising number from Italy were widely available, but Muscadet was a big exception -- basically not seen on those types of lists, notwithstanding plenty of other wines from the Loire.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by SFJoe:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by SFJoe:
Tissot [ducks, avoiding bricks from Talibs] bottled 3 different Vins Jaunes from 2003 by terroir. The wines are quite distinct, even from such a hot vintage. The details escape me. But you would not confuse the flavors.

Are they also different cepages?

No. VJ is only savagnin. Though it is sometimes spelled differently.

Although there are sous voile wines made from Chardonnay or a blend of Chardonnay and Savignin, just not labelled vin jaune.

 

[SFJoe]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by SFJoe:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by SFJoe:
Tissot [ducks, avoiding bricks from Talibs] bottled 3 different Vins Jaunes from 2003 by terroir. The wines are quite distinct, even from such a hot vintage. The details escape me. But you would not confuse the flavors.

Are they also different cepages?

No. VJ is only savagnin. Though it is sometimes spelled differently.

Although there are sous voile wines made from Chardonnay or a blend of Chardonnay and Savignin, just not labelled vin jaune.

Yes, and there are ouille wines made from Pinot Noir, also not labelled vin jaune.

 

[Cory Cartwright]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Tom Glasgow:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
I don't thing you need worry with d'Angerville (note that he's not using his name for the estate). I think he's doing it out of interest and passion and with great respect. I could think of some that might eventually go for profit and publicity, but so far . . . .

seems like change for the worse. A few thoughts:
How large is the Jura? Size would seem to be a factor in determining how quickly outsiders could change it.
The fact that he's an hour away, but only recently discovered the wines, is surprising.
Not sure about zero percent interest rates (seems unlikely banks are doing non-recourse loans on vineyards) but Muscadet could use some capital and publicity.

Can't sell Muscadet for $50.

You know, in Paris a few weeks ago, hipster wines from all over France as well as a surprising number from Italy were widely available, but Muscadet was a big exception -- basically not seen on those types of lists, notwithstanding plenty of other wines from the Loire.

You see Marc Pesnot and Jo Landron and not really anybody else from the region.

 

[Sharon Bowman]

originally posted by SFJoe:
No. VJ is only savagnin. Though it is sometimes spelled differently.

You mean when illiterate people get at the keyboard?

 

[Sharon Bowman]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Cory Cartwright:
Talk to anyone and they'll tell you that for instance, the small area behinf Montigny-les-Arsures is the superior terroir for trousseau, while Pupillin is superior for poulsard, and the good winemakers obviously further distinguish plots and yes, don't get them started on marls.

I'm not asking anyone, I'm asking hipster douchebag Jura-philes like you.

Does that folklore jibe with your experience? My only time in the region was for a wedding, so I've never been to the vineyards. I grew up with Puffeney and then Overnoy, the Houillon, then all these others that have started to come to the states like Ganevat, Gahier, etc.

Oh, monkey troll. Why do you champion ignorance of terroir under guise of "hipsters"? It's fairly pathetic for a scientist and appreciator of wines and terroirs to throw pointless and uninformed commentary like here and above. The reason you can be a douche is because you've only glanced at the region? FTL.

 

[Yixin]

originally posted by Cory Cartwright:
You see Marc Pesnot and Jo Landron and not really anybody else from the region.

Eric Chevalier, especially where they carry his other wines. Guy Bossard, especially cuvée Taurus (I know). But the rest are not hipster enough.

 

[Chris Coad]

originally posted by Cliff:
The Dressnerian three-tier schnook system

One never tires of Joe and his beautiful family. Even Buster is looking especially chipper in that photo.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Sharon Bowman:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Cory Cartwright:
Talk to anyone and they'll tell you that for instance, the small area behinf Montigny-les-Arsures is the superior terroir for trousseau, while Pupillin is superior for poulsard, and the good winemakers obviously further distinguish plots and yes, don't get them started on marls.

I'm not asking anyone, I'm asking hipster douchebag Jura-philes like you.

Does that folklore jibe with your experience? My only time in the region was for a wedding, so I've never been to the vineyards. I grew up with Puffeney and then Overnoy, the Houillon, then all these others that have started to come to the states like Ganevat, Gahier, etc.

Oh, monkey troll. Why do you champion ignorance of terroir under guise of "hipsters"? It's fairly pathetic for a scientist and appreciator of wines and terroirs to throw pointless and uninformed commentary like here and above. The reason you can be a douche is because you've only glanced at the region? FTL.

Alas dearest, I'm sorry to upset you so, but if the shoe fits... I can only hope that you raise the twins to shower and shave and learn to sail.

To deny that there is a cabal with gatekeepers is to deny the reality on the ground.

This is not a new thing, but a long running dispute I have with "natural" winemaking, mainly, that it seems to obscure terroir. I first noticed it in the late 1990s with Breton, namely, that the wines tasted more like each other, the Perrieres and Picasses to be precise, than they tasted like other Bourgueil and Chinon. Not that the wines from these producers can't be delicious, I'm a sucker for many of them, but that this approach may not be the best way to show site specificity. That doesn't need to be everyone's primary interest, but it is mine.

Now with wines from the Jura, many of the emerging stars seem to combine natural methodology with the traditions of the area, so it seems to me that the process could very much obscure terroir.

I was teasing Cory a bit, but I am very much interested in his FIRST hand, on the ground experience. In places that I am familiar with, Chinon, Northern Rhone, Burgundy, Piemonte, it is pretty clear the role that terroir plays. You can see it in the soil and the lay of the land.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Cory Cartwright:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by VLM:

Can't sell Muscadet for $50.

You know, in Paris a few weeks ago, hipster wines from all over France as well as a surprising number from Italy were widely available, but Muscadet was a big exception -- basically not seen on those types of lists, notwithstanding plenty of other wines from the Loire.

You see Marc Pesnot and Jo Landron and not really anybody else from the region.

Joe Landron is the hardest working man in show business.

 

[SFJoe]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Cory Cartwright:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by VLM:

Can't sell Muscadet for $50.

You know, in Paris a few weeks ago, hipster wines from all over France as well as a surprising number from Italy were widely available, but Muscadet was a big exception -- basically not seen on those types of lists, notwithstanding plenty of other wines from the Loire.

You see Marc Pesnot and Jo Landron and not really anybody else from the region.

Joe Landron is the hardest working man in show business.

He sure is, especially now that his main rival has left the stage.

 

[Guilhaume gerard]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Sharon Bowman:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Cory Cartwright:
Talk to anyone and they'll tell you that for instance, the small area behinf Montigny-les-Arsures is the superior terroir for trousseau, while Pupillin is superior for poulsard, and the good winemakers obviously further distinguish plots and yes, don't get them started on marls.

I'm not asking anyone, I'm asking hipster douchebag Jura-philes like you.

Does that folklore jibe with your experience? My only time in the region was for a wedding, so I've never been to the vineyards. I grew up with Puffeney and then Overnoy, the Houillon, then all these others that have started to come to the states like Ganevat, Gahier, etc.

Oh, monkey troll. Why do you champion ignorance of terroir under guise of "hipsters"? It's fairly pathetic for a scientist and appreciator of wines and terroirs to throw pointless and uninformed commentary like here and above. The reason you can be a douche is because you've only glanced at the region? FTL.

Alas dearest, I'm sorry to upset you so, but if the shoe fits... I can only hope that you raise the twins to shower and shave and learn to sail.

To deny that there is a cabal with gatekeepers is to deny the reality on the ground.

This is not a new thing, but a long running dispute I have with "natural" winemaking, mainly, that it seems to obscure terroir. I first noticed it in the late 1990s with Breton, namely, that the wines tasted more like each other, the Perrieres and Picasses to be precise, than they tasted like other Bourgueil and Chinon. Not that the wines from these producers can't be delicious, I'm a sucker for many of them, but that this approach may not be the best way to show site specificity. That doesn't need to be everyone's primary interest, but it is mine.

Now with wines from the Jura, many of the emerging stars seem to combine natural methodology with the traditions of the area, so it seems to me that the process could very much obscure terroir.

I was teasing Cory a bit, but I am very much interested in his FIRST hand, on the ground experience. In places that I am familiar with, Chinon, Northern Rhone, Burgundy, Piemonte, it is pretty clear the role that terroir plays. You can see it in the soil and the lay of the land.

Do you really believe the Jura has more bad "Natural" producers obscuring their Terroirs than say, Southern Rhone or the Loire?

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Guilhaume gerard:
Do you really believe the Jura has more bad "Natural" producers obscuring their Terroirs than say, Southern Rhone or the Loire?

Not at all. The sheer size of the Loire and Rhone departments would make that impossible. I have no idea what the "Natural" percentage is.

I'm also not sure that the percentage of "bad" natural winemakers is any more than the percentage of "bad" conventional winemakers.

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Tom Glasgow:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
I don't thing you need worry with d'Angerville (note that he's not using his name for the estate). I think he's doing it out of interest and passion and with great respect. I could think of some that might eventually go for profit and publicity, but so far . . . .

seems like change for the worse. A few thoughts:
How large is the Jura? Size would seem to be a factor in determining how quickly outsiders could change it.
The fact that he's an hour away, but only recently discovered the wines, is surprising.
Not sure about zero percent interest rates (seems unlikely banks are doing non-recourse loans on vineyards) but Muscadet could use some capital and publicity.

Can't sell Muscadet for $50.

The region should rebrand: Ducs de Nantais, or another romantic moniker. 'Muscadet' has the allure of something like 'cotton underwear.' There's no quality-based reason that, say, Clisson should sell for less than decent 1er white Burgundy, imho (or, other way 'round, that decent 1er Burgundy should sell more than Clisson).

 

[Yixin]

Michel Brégeon agrees with you, Ian. Although his comparison was with another of Kermit's boys, Coche-Dury, from an old Chez Panisse wine list. We were drinking the 2004 Réserve en cuve then (now bottled, and a rather nice wine), so disagreement was not an option.