Sharon Bowman
Sharon Bowman
+1
Does Cambie suck?
- Thread starter Zachary Ross
- Start date
+1
Robert Dentice
Robert Dentice
The Martian carbonic Grenache is similar and around $20.
Back in the earlier Mesozoic, Chateauneuf was a great, not-too-expensive wine to have with a steak. I don't love them with all my heart, but there are some wines that would be totally fine to have on Tuesday night with an onglet, if only they didn't cost $85. The new pricing regime has put them in a range for special occasions, and most of them just don't rock my world. So I can't figure out what Chateauneuf is for, these days.
*I have little experience of Rayas, so leave that out of the above.
*I have little experience of Rayas, so leave that out of the above.
I look forward to the Martian.
A generous fellow gave me some Pfifferling blind recently. I said that it was really well done carbonic somethingorother, maybe it was grenache, but maybe not, and after that I had a hard time. I have thrilled to some of the wines, but on a point of simple pleasure. It is hard to get geeky about terroir with those wines, or perhaps I don't taste them enough to understand terroir through that lens.
A generous fellow gave me some Pfifferling blind recently. I said that it was really well done carbonic somethingorother, maybe it was grenache, but maybe not, and after that I had a hard time. I have thrilled to some of the wines, but on a point of simple pleasure. It is hard to get geeky about terroir with those wines, or perhaps I don't taste them enough to understand terroir through that lens.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
He is a Chauvet disciple through and through, so he probably reflects Chauvet's views on terroirism (however, I am reading that long Chauvet interview now, and have not run into anything in it about the impact of carbonic on terroir, one way or the other).
Steve Edmunds
Steve Edmunds
I had a Birichino Grenache last Spring from the old Besson vineyard in the Santa Cruz mountains that was fresh and lovely.
I used to drink Chateauneuf happily, up through the '95 vintage; I found the perfume of wines like Clos des Papes and Vieux Donjon enchanting. But, as Joe said, they used to be $15- 20. And they were mostly around 13 degrees, and structured. The passing of men like Paul Avril, and the shift, therefore, in direction from a new generation may be a piece of the puzzle.
I used to drink Chateauneuf happily, up through the '95 vintage; I found the perfume of wines like Clos des Papes and Vieux Donjon enchanting. But, as Joe said, they used to be $15- 20. And they were mostly around 13 degrees, and structured. The passing of men like Paul Avril, and the shift, therefore, in direction from a new generation may be a piece of the puzzle.
Oliver McCrum
Oliver McCrum
New generation who has seen what 95 points does to your sales and your pricing, I suspect, rather like Alsace.
Cory Cartwright
Cory Cartwright
Neauport disciple.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
In the half dozen emails we exchanged last year he only mentioned Chauvet.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
Trying to find a photo of Jacques Néauport online. If I type his name into Google Images, the first face that comes up is Comrade Brezeme.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
His actual words were Ces quatres cuvées sont issues de la macération carbonique mais avec un temps plus long pour la pierre-chaude. En lisant Jules Chauvet grand initiateur des vins naturels et défenseur des macérations carboniques, on peut dire que ce style de vinification est une "fermentation arômatique"
I'm sure, with your longstanding intimacy with both divides of the Rhone, that you've tasted lots of wonderful 14.5% conventionally macerated grenaches but for those like me who haven't, a 14,5%/0.4% TA carbonic is (a priori & ceteris paribus) much more appealing than a 14.5%/0.4% conventional.
Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
I just happened to be looking at my notes from my visit to Schäfer-Fröhlich last summer and Tim Schäfer said that in 2011, his later-picked grapes had more freshness and minerality.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
Eric, looking at what you wrote back in 2009 about the carbonic degradation of malic acid, I think I understand better your comment about Grenache with 0.4% TA:
He (Chauvet) advocates for the pure carbonic maceration for 2 reasons : important degradation of malic acid on highly acidic harvest and purity, very light extraction of tanins and polyphenols in general and details of the aromas, obvious perfect profile for granitic soil gamays (mostly northen beaujolais).
He never tried it else where and even reports that the trials done in an other region, the rhone valley, by his colleague Pierre Charnay, has been very controversial in terms of terroir expression.(1)
During the 1971 carbonic maceration meeting in Avignon, there was a consensus among the oenologists (Chauvet, Charnay, Coste, Puisais and Cuinier) that aromas and polyphenol structure obtained by carbonic maceration were very different from the ones from traditional fermentation, and very easy to peak whatever the grapes or terroir are.(2)
Besides your, I think, greater point that Chauvet's name should not be invoked to validate the use of carbonic outside Beaujolais (when this, presumably, only reflects Neauport's subsequent work), are you also saying that Grenache, when picked at ripeness that generates 14.5%, will not have sufficient malic acidity to withstand the degradation caused by carbonic, and should, therefore, only be subjected to conventional fermentation?
He (Chauvet) advocates for the pure carbonic maceration for 2 reasons : important degradation of malic acid on highly acidic harvest and purity, very light extraction of tanins and polyphenols in general and details of the aromas, obvious perfect profile for granitic soil gamays (mostly northen beaujolais).
He never tried it else where and even reports that the trials done in an other region, the rhone valley, by his colleague Pierre Charnay, has been very controversial in terms of terroir expression.(1)
During the 1971 carbonic maceration meeting in Avignon, there was a consensus among the oenologists (Chauvet, Charnay, Coste, Puisais and Cuinier) that aromas and polyphenol structure obtained by carbonic maceration were very different from the ones from traditional fermentation, and very easy to peak whatever the grapes or terroir are.(2)
Besides your, I think, greater point that Chauvet's name should not be invoked to validate the use of carbonic outside Beaujolais (when this, presumably, only reflects Neauport's subsequent work), are you also saying that Grenache, when picked at ripeness that generates 14.5%, will not have sufficient malic acidity to withstand the degradation caused by carbonic, and should, therefore, only be subjected to conventional fermentation?
Well, as far as I am concern, don't give me the choice between of these fruit salad, terroir less wines and any Reynaud's wine including the cheap vin de pays du Vaucluse.
This is an enormous misunderstanding of Chauvet theories
In Chauvet's mind "la fermentation aromatique" was the transformation of the aroma precursors from the grapes into wine aromas through the yeasts metabolism or the enzymatic reactions of CM.
So you get this "fermentation aromatique" wether you use traditional or carbonic maceration.
Like I mention before, Chauvet gave up on CM begining in 1983, because he thought that the climate change was giving too low malic acid grapes, increasing drasticaly the risk of piqure lactique.
The problem is now solved by the extended and preventive use of lysozyme obtained from eggs made by GM hens. Fucking natural.
Now Chauvet's take on CM on grenaches :
Jules CHauvet "Etudes Scientifiques" Jean Paul Rochet Editeurs ISBN 9782911361937
p. 136 Observation sur l'arôme des vins en Beaujolais par maceration carbonique.
Neauport disciples barely read the first 10 pages of the "etudes scientifiques". In fact those written by Neauport and where you find the only pictures of the book...
I guess "Bidasse" (Neauport's nick name) should make a cartoon of Chauvet's work. Easier to understand for his buddies.