Damn that flu bug!

originally posted by Dan McQ:

Anecdotally, the intradermal flu vaccine is far more efficient at producing extremely sore arms the day after than is the traditional flu vaccine.

I think you can make a far better case for mandating flu vaccine in health care workers than for the general population (though of course I favor everyone getting it): if you are a HCW it is counterintuitive that you would not protect your patients from the flu by putting yourself at risk of becoming the vector.
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Arnold says everyone in his unit is required to either get the vaccine or wear masks all day at work. Of course he works in the bronchoscopy suite so I don't know if that's a hospital-wide requirement.
 
originally posted by Jay Miller:
originally posted by Dan McQ:

Anecdotally, the intradermal flu vaccine is far more efficient at producing extremely sore arms the day after than is the traditional flu vaccine.

I think you can make a far better case for mandating flu vaccine in health care workers than for the general population (though of course I favor everyone getting it): if you are a HCW it is counterintuitive that you would not protect your patients from the flu by putting yourself at risk of becoming the vector.
Click to expand...

Arnold says everyone in his unit is required to either get the vaccine or wear masks all day at work. Of course he works in the bronchoscopy suite so I don't know if that's a hospital-wide requirement.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure it's that way here, too.
 
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Jay Miller:
originally posted by Dan McQ:

Anecdotally, the intradermal flu vaccine is far more efficient at producing extremely sore arms the day after than is the traditional flu vaccine.

I think you can make a far better case for mandating flu vaccine in health care workers than for the general population (though of course I favor everyone getting it): if you are a HCW it is counterintuitive that you would not protect your patients from the flu by putting yourself at risk of becoming the vector.
Click to expand...

Arnold says everyone in his unit is required to either get the vaccine or wear masks all day at work. Of course he works in the bronchoscopy suite so I don't know if that's a hospital-wide requirement.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure it's that way here, too.
Click to expand...

At the wine shop?
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Jay Miller:
originally posted by Dan McQ:

Anecdotally, the intradermal flu vaccine is far more efficient at producing extremely sore arms the day after than is the traditional flu vaccine.

I think you can make a far better case for mandating flu vaccine in health care workers than for the general population (though of course I favor everyone getting it): if you are a HCW it is counterintuitive that you would not protect your patients from the flu by putting yourself at risk of becoming the vector.
Click to expand...

Arnold says everyone in his unit is required to either get the vaccine or wear masks all day at work. Of course he works in the bronchoscopy suite so I don't know if that's a hospital-wide requirement.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure it's that way here, too.
Click to expand...

At the wine shop?
Click to expand...

The vaccine is mandatory at the wine shop.
 
originally posted by Cole Kendall:
originally posted by SFJoe:
Folks, the US doesn't provide health care to a boatload of its citizens. Mandatory vaccination may not be the place to start.

Anyhow, peeps desiring boatloads o' info on flu can find it here.
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I have to say as an empiricist when I read stuff like:

The results of 31 studies show that the trivalent inactivated influenza vaccine is overall 59% effective in individuals 18-65 years of age. That means of every 100 individuals immunized, 41 will be susceptible to influenza. This number is far too low it should be above 90%.

and

These findings will provide a rationale for those do not feel it is necessary to be immunized against influenza. But the study authors do not condone abandoning the inactivated influenza vaccine:

We should maintain public support for present vaccines that are the best intervention available for seasonal influenza.

In other words, it’s better than nothing, surely not a ringing endorsement. I suspect that the results of this study will lead to a decline in influenza immunization rates in the US.

from there

I am not quite so taken with the Monkey rhetoric above (note: after a flu episode of a dozen years ago I get the vaccine every year and have not been in the 41%).
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A couple of points:

1. The efficacy that everyone is concentrating on is sterilizing immunity. There is also a priming immunity effect that the 40% who may experience an illness, is still valuable to the individual. It significantly shortens the illness and lowers morbidity. For at risk populations, that can be lifesaving.

2. The vaccine is getting better over time, as can be seen in the efficacy of the H1N1 vaccine.

3. This shit is not easy. This is a retrovirus we're dealing with here.

4. I can't emphasize herd immunity enough. Even at lower sterilizing immunity, the network effects from a high vaccination rate would save thousands, maybe tens of thousands, of lives.

Listen, if not getting vaccinated only killed the fuckheads who refuse to get vaccinated, I wouldn't care. World is better with less stupid in it. The problem is that these people are endangering others. That is wrong and deserves a punch in the kidney.
 
originally posted by VLM:

A couple of points:

1. The efficacy that everyone is concentrating on is sterilizing immunity. There is also a priming immunity effect that the 40% who may experience an illness, is still valuable to the individual. It significantly shortens the illness and lowers morbidity. For at risk populations, that can be lifesaving. {/quote]

Absolutely.

{quote]

2. The vaccine is getting better over time, as can be seen in the efficacy of the H1N1 vaccine.
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Eh, I'm not so sure. I wonder whether finding something that grows in eggs might not alter the antigens by a critical little bit. I'm not sure progress is huge--the methods have been pretty constant for a long time.

3. This shit is not easy. This is a retrovirus we're dealing with here.
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Nope. Single stranded RNA virus, but not a retrovirus. So, hard but not impossible.

4. I can't emphasize herd immunity enough. Even at lower sterilizing immunity, the network effects from a high vaccination rate would save thousands, maybe tens of thousands, of lives.

Listen, if not getting vaccinated only killed the fuckheads who refuse to get vaccinated, I wouldn't care. World is better with less stupid in it. The problem is that these people are endangering others. That is wrong and deserves a punch in the kidney.
Click to expand...
 
originally posted by SFJoe:

2. The vaccine is getting better over time, as can be seen in the efficacy of the H1N1 vaccine.
Click to expand...

Eh, I'm not so sure. I wonder whether finding something that grows in eggs might not alter the antigens by a critical little bit. I'm not sure progress is huge--the methods have been pretty constant for a long time.
Click to expand...

I think that it's worth noting the achievement of producing an avian flu vaccine when the virus killed the bird eggs that are normally used for vaccine production.

Mark Lipton
 
I don't know to what extent this is relevant, but refusing to vaccinate only creates a danger for those who do vaccinate to the extent that the vaccination is not a perfect protection. If it were, only those who didn't vaccinate would get ill. A better argument would have to do with the social cost borne by all as a result of those who have the illness as a result of exercising a choice that really doesn't carry much benefit for them. But of course such balancing rarely justifies monkey rhetoric.
 
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by SFJoe:

2. The vaccine is getting better over time, as can be seen in the efficacy of the H1N1 vaccine.
Click to expand...

Eh, I'm not so sure. I wonder whether finding something that grows in eggs might not alter the antigens by a critical little bit. I'm not sure progress is huge--the methods have been pretty constant for a long time.

I think that it's worth noting the achievement of producing an avian flu vaccine when the virus killed the bird eggs that are normally used for vaccine production.

Mark Lipton
Click to expand...
That wasn't me.
 
originally posted by MLipton:


I think that it's worth noting the achievement of producing an avian flu vaccine when the virus killed the bird eggs that are normally used for vaccine production.

Mark Lipton
Click to expand...

As long as it doesn't kill all the laying hens first!
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
I don't know to what extent this is relevant, but refusing to vaccinate only creates a danger for those who do vaccinate to the extent that the vaccination is not a perfect protection.
Click to expand...

However that is a fairly large %age of the elderly and young so thats who the non-immunizers are primarily killing.
 
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Jay Miller:
originally posted by Dan McQ:

Anecdotally, the intradermal flu vaccine is far more efficient at producing extremely sore arms the day after than is the traditional flu vaccine.

I think you can make a far better case for mandating flu vaccine in health care workers than for the general population (though of course I favor everyone getting it): if you are a HCW it is counterintuitive that you would not protect your patients from the flu by putting yourself at risk of becoming the vector.
Click to expand...

Arnold says everyone in his unit is required to either get the vaccine or wear masks all day at work. Of course he works in the bronchoscopy suite so I don't know if that's a hospital-wide requirement.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure it's that way here, too.
Click to expand...

My wife's a hospital based doc and they don't have to get vaccinated but if you don't they make you wear a badge that says you didn't. Kind of like a scarlet A. The workers who do get it, wear a badge showing they got vaccinated. They have close to 100% participation.
 
This will be interesting to watch. Those are goofy guys, and there are a lot of people who don't believe they can actually make real quantities of their vaccine.
 
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