Vouvray p'ox?

S

SFJoe

Joe Dougherty
Hmmmmm.

A bottle of 2002 Le Mont sec that has been in my cellar since release had a blue tinge to the cork (not fully evident in this pic), a somewhat advanced color, and a bit more caramel in the flavors than I would prefer. Still a very tasty drop, but you would call this bottle more advanced than recent 1996 Le Mont secs, for example.

I don't know where these are going, but I will increase my sampling frequency, that is for sure.

I hate, hate, hate premox and the shadows it casts.

 
originally posted by SFJoe:
Vouvray p'ox?Hmmmmm.

A bottle of 2002 Le Mont sec that has been in my cellar since release had a blue tinge to the cork (not fully evident in this pic), a somewhat advanced color, and a bit more caramel in the flavors than I would prefer. Still a very tasty drop, but you would call this bottle more advanced than recent 1996 Le Mont secs, for example.

I don't know where these are going, but I will increase my sampling frequency, that is for sure.

I hate, hate, hate premox and the shadows it casts.

Click to expand...

As you know, the '02 LM Demi has been troubling me.
 
I have to say that I feel a bit less guilty about consuming all my 02s at a young age. But Joe: you only like your ox when it isn't prem???

Reductio ad absurdum
Mark Lipton
 
the 1996 clos du bourg demi-sec i had a little while back was freaking brilliant. still young of course, but i had bought it at huet in 1999 and couldn't wait any longer.
 
originally posted by MLipton:
I have to say that I feel a bit less guilty about consuming all my 02s at a young age. But Joe: you only like your ox when it isn't prem???

Reductio ad absurdum
Mark Lipton
Click to expand...
I don't like the ox. cf cork discussions.
 
originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by SFJoe:
Vouvray p'ox?Hmmmmm.

A bottle of 2002 Le Mont sec that has been in my cellar since release had a blue tinge to the cork (not fully evident in this pic), a somewhat advanced color, and a bit more caramel in the flavors than I would prefer. Still a very tasty drop, but you would call this bottle more advanced than recent 1996 Le Mont secs, for example.

I don't know where these are going, but I will increase my sampling frequency, that is for sure.

I hate, hate, hate premox and the shadows it casts.

Click to expand...

As you know, the '02 LM Demi has been troubling me.
Click to expand...

So you have said. I'm glad to have had several good anecdotes in a row on the other side.
 
originally posted by .sasha:
not that 96 le mont sec hasn't been weird on occasion
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Yes, although a recent bottle was really great.

Do you recall blue corks? That's what really gets me down.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by .sasha:
not that 96 le mont sec hasn't been weird on occasion
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Yes, although a recent bottle was really great.

Do you recall blue corks? That's what really gets me down.
Click to expand...

what's the blue, is that Cu precipitate?

I don't recall, on my 96 LM Sec. Was yours fresh from the start, or did it start oxidative and freshen up?
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
Vouvray p'ox?Hmmmmm.

A bottle of 2002 Le Mont sec that has been in my cellar since release had a blue tinge to the cork (not fully evident in this pic), a somewhat advanced color, and a bit more caramel in the flavors than I would prefer. Still a very tasty drop, but you would call this bottle more advanced than recent 1996 Le Mont secs, for example.

I don't know where these are going, but I will increase my sampling frequency, that is for sure.

I hate, hate, hate premox and the shadows it casts.

Click to expand...
Boo! Prem-ox. Boo!
 
originally posted by .sasha:

what's the blue, is that Cu precipitate?
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I very much doubt that in those days Noel was treating the wine like a NZ producer figuring out screwcaps.

I have never had a satisfactory answer about what the blue is. Never heard or seen one. Would be very interested if anyone had the least idea.

But there is a pretty high correlation with premoxed stuff.
 
There is anecdotal evidence that a blue tinge to a silicone-coated cork is a good predictor of premox. Like my esteemed colleague I have not yet puzzled out the underlying chemistry.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by .sasha:

what's the blue, is that Cu precipitate?
Click to expand...
I very much doubt that in those days Noel was treating the wine like a NZ producer figuring out screwcaps.

I have never had a satisfactory answer about what the blue is. Never heard or seen one. Would be very interested if anyone had the least idea.

But there is a pretty high correlation with premoxed stuff.
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Of course the idea of Pinguet treating his wine with copper sulphate a la a novice screwcapper because he feared an adverse mercaptan/thiol result through 'reduction' seems [more than] doubtful but as you and Mark L know there are more ways than that for copper to be present in a wine.

I recall at least one previous thread [some time ago now] where you were both engaged in considering a possible cause for the 'blue tinge' but iirc concluded then, as now, there was no plausible explanation that would link the colour to premox.

My chemistry is way too old [and never practised] to offer anything meaningful but the idea of the colour in relation to copper and the possibility of an oxidation process catalysed might be considered if only to be easily dismissed with some proper expertise or detailed knowledge concerning Huet's vineyard practices - and those of all blue-tinged cork winemakers.
 
originally posted by robert ames:
need i say more?
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Sure, please do.

You conclude that the smart move is to buy wines made in a more forward style and drink them young?

(Or you may conclude something else, but you might be right if my guess above is correct.)
 
I was never a heavy white Burgundy buyer so I haven't followed the premox saga quite as closely as others, but --

1) I could have sworn the blue-tinged cork thing had been acknowledged as a red herring. It may be on a lot of premoxed bottles, but it's also on a lot of non-premoxed bottles, isn't it?

2) If there is any premox in Vouvray above and beyond the pattern you're going to get anywhere from occasional cork failures, that pretty much demolishes the theory that premox is a result of any changes in winemaking practice in Burgundy. The theory had gone that Burgundy producers started using things like pneumatic presses, excessive lees stirring, and of course riper picking to catch up with the huge scores being awarded to Verget and a few others. It seems unlikely to me that any of that was going on chez Huet, but obviously Joe will know best on that front. If winemaking practices are not the culprit, then that really leaves only one possibility - the corks. That has always been my gut suspicion since I found it hard to believe that so many producers simultaneously would have adopted premox-inducing wine practices with the 1995 vintage and not before,** while it made perfect sense that a single change in cork processing could trigger an instant "outbreak" of wine failure, and the only reason that explanation didn't seem plausible was because producers all over the world use the same corks, but only Burgundies were failing.

** OK, Lafon did it before, but that's it.
 
My experience with 2002 Huet cork failure was enough for me to swear off buying the wines.

It was savage corkiness so premox would just be insult to injury.

I felt that my 2002 Foreau were progressing a little too quickly.

It's really too bad because 2002 was such a promising vintage. I feel especially bad for you because I'll bet you bought a fair bit.

I've sort of stopped aging white wines. Might as well drink Champagne now, I guess.
 
originally posted by VLM:

I've sort of stopped aging white wines. Might as well drink Champagne now, I guess.
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Yes, I think it's going to be all Champagne and Manzanilla in our old age.
 
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