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Vouvray p'ox?
- Thread starter SFJoe
- Start date
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There are premox white burgs at places where peroxide is long gone.
U
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originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
** OK, Lafon did it before, but that's it.
hey, don't sell Colin-Deleger and Pierre Morey short
We've discussed this here before. IMO, tree bark has too many things that could react with peroxide or speed its decomposition for peroxide to "hide in the cracks." Peroxide is quite stable if very pure, but bark doesn't seem to me to provide the same environment as clean glass and neutral pH. Even in pores.originally posted by Jay Miller:
originally posted by Carl Steefel:
I have seen the blue tinge attributed to the past use of peroxide in bleaching the corks. To the extent that this was done, it may have been that the peroxide lingered in the pores of the cork (held there by the capillarity), only to diffuse out when bathed on when end in liquid (the wine)...originally posted by MLipton:
There is anecdotal evidence that a blue tinge to a silicone-coated cork is a good predictor of premox. Like my esteemed colleague I have not yet puzzled out the underlying chemistry.
Mark Lipton
That is certainly one of the theories:
Loading…
oxidised-burgs.wikispaces.com
Which doesn't exclude the possibility of some oxidized cork species that could survive the early life of a cork and oxidize wine in turn.
Though I have a bit of trouble imagining that the full oxidizing capacity of a cork is so high as to spoil a bottle of wine. But alternatively I may miss my guess at the stoichiometry.
The blue stuff only comes up after a few minutes' exposure to air, btw. A headscratcher.
To anyone who gets one of those blue-tinged corks: save the cork and send it to me (PM me for a mailing address). I'll run an analysis on the blue stuff and try to make some sense of what it actually is. Having never seen one myself I'm a bit dependent on the kindness of strangers (and who is stranger than a fellow Disorderly?)
Mark Lipton
Mark Lipton
Arjun Mendiratta
Arjun Mendiratta
originally posted by SFJoe:
The blue stuff only comes up after a few minutes' exposure to air, btw. A headscratcher.
I was not aware of this detail. Thanks.
originally posted by SFJoe:
2002 CdB demi-sec tonight shows no signs of trouble.
Fwiw, I've only had the problem with the Le Mont Demi.
robert ames
robert ames
originally posted by SFJoe:
Sure, please do.originally posted by robert ames:
need i say more?
You conclude that the smart move is to buy wines made in a more forward style and drink them young?
(Or you may conclude something else, but you might be right if my guess above is correct.)
the chidaine was clearly good for say, another 25 years or so (if i may make such an uneducated guess--at any rate, a long while). (and i'm thinking that i'm good for another 25 years or so).
not sure if this wine was made in a forward style (it was a ripe vintage which would make it yummy in its youth), i'm just saying it was fantastic, aromatically spellbinding, and downright delicious, and it was a good time to open it (with rillette of pork and duck).
U
Unknown
Guest
originally posted by SFJoe:
Prof Lipton,
the blue is transient. comes up after a few minutes of air, goes away again after a few hours.
Maybe we'll have to show up in your lab and pull corks until we find one?
isn't it easier to fly him over here? we'll all chip in and call it the Premox Paulee.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
Are you planning to put up a hammock in the cellar?originally posted by .sasha:
originally posted by SFJoe:
Prof Lipton,
the blue is transient. comes up after a few minutes of air, goes away again after a few hours.
Maybe we'll have to show up in your lab and pull corks until we find one?
isn't it easier to fly him over here? we'll all chip in and call it the Premox Paulee.
U
Unknown
Guest
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Are you planning to put up a hammock in the cellar?
An area of the cellar known as New Akademgorodok will be designated. Prof Lipton will feel safe conducting his research there.
Herr Doktor SFJoe -- ooh, that muddies the waters, doesn't it? Curiouser and curiouser, as the Caterpillar said.
Dotster and Jeff. -- I like the direction of this discussion but doing an analysis in CWV's space would take some doing. Fortunately, a colleague of mine has developed a handheld portable mass spectrometer (as seen on CSI)
Mark Lipton
Dotster and Jeff. -- I like the direction of this discussion but doing an analysis in CWV's space would take some doing. Fortunately, a colleague of mine has developed a handheld portable mass spectrometer (as seen on CSI)
Mark Lipton
nigel groundwater
nigel groundwater
And iirc many [all?] stickies have usually been treated to extra doses of SO2 for reasons of extra potential for re-fermentation/other bacteriological action which is why [at least] some also have a greater regulatory allowance for volatile acidity - and such dosing may also "absorb oxidative insults".originally posted by SFJoe:
Stickies have a much more concetrated redox buffer to absorb oxidative insults--they are more like reds.
Which isn't to say that they couldn't age faster than expected, but the timeframe should be longer.
If Pinguet had also started [seeking to minimise sulphites by considerably reducing SO2 additions] what others, particularly those white Burgundy producers, were doing then perhaps some of his [even] less-dosed sec cuvees might have been made more susceptible to a degree of premature ageing/oxidation.
FWIW 2002 has been the vintage where I have seen my white Burgundies develop faster than in any other year. However because we buy by the case and have the first bottles early we have endured very little poxed wine. Nevertheless I can for example recall 3 different cases of 2002 Cote d'Or 1er crus [Chateau de la Maltroye Grandes Ruchottes and the Chenevottes and a Latour-Giraud Meursault Genevrieres] which, had we not finished them over a period of a few years rather than taking 5+ more years, would IMO have been poxed.
I am guessing that 2002 may have generally been a vintage when the grapes were generally in such good condition that desire to reduce sulphites resulted in even lower SO2 dosing.
If, as most may now believe, the pox is a multi-faceted phenomenon in which many changes in viticultural practise and winemaking aggravated possibly by poorer quality/new treatment corks came together in a perfect storm in Burgundy in the mid-90s there would be no reason to believe that some of those factors [which would have had a general pervasiveness] should not have caused some manifestation of the pox elsewhere. SO2 dosing would seem to be a prime candidate for some ubiquity possibly influenced by the requirement for sulphite labelling and the Natural Wine movement.
If, as has been suggested, the problem lies with the corks and, more particularly, with the way in which they're bleached, perhaps what has happened has less to do with residual oxidants compromising the wine and more to do with the integrity of the cork itself. Could it that hydrogen peroxide subtly damages the cellular structure of the cork thus promoting earlier cork failure. What say y'all? Has that possibility been mooted?
Mark Lipton
Mark Lipton
U
Unknown
Guest
prof, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, places in cote d'or that had abandoned peroxide in the early 00s were still seeing some p-ox in subsequent years.
which of course does not prove/disprove anything; just more data
which of course does not prove/disprove anything; just more data
Cory Cartwright
Cory Cartwright
You'd probably have a greater instance of Pox at the actual Paulee.originally posted by .sasha:
originally posted by SFJoe:
Prof Lipton,
the blue is transient. comes up after a few minutes of air, goes away again after a few hours.
Maybe we'll have to show up in your lab and pull corks until we find one?
isn't it easier to fly him over here? we'll all chip in and call it the Premox Paulee.