2006 Graillot Crozes-Hermitage

[BJ]

Although I'm ok with them young, too - I like their frank freshness. But for example I'm still sitting on my 98s. And I, like Mel, have enjoyed the 90 Guiraud, several recently in fact.

But I gotta be honest: Graillot's not my favorite producer. I think he's a great winemaker but I truly feel the vineyards he's working with are just ok. I never quite get revved up about his wines the way I do a good old oak Northern Crozes or Southern St. J's producer. They're fine, but there's a limit to what they can be. More in the hedgerow camp, which is good, but not the pinnacle of what the northern Rhone is to me.

Interestingly, the best Graillot I've had is his St. Joe's, which I've only had once. That St. J (drunk in Tournon) had more complexity and meatiness than the Crozes I've had. I'm sitting on an older bottle too, can't remember which year; I think a 01.

And Sharon, I had to laugh about Arnaud: Lesli doesn't like young Graillot either, and has almost the same description. In fact in large part based on young Graillots she's decides Crozes is an evil appellation, and whenever I bring one out, she wants something different.

 

[Seth Hill]

originally posted by SFJoe:

originally posted by Seth Hill:
What constitutes old? [...]

Whoa, Nellie. I was talking about Crozes Hermitage, not Cornas.

Not that Allemand Reynard has to be kept into decrepituded, but I don't think anyone would tell you it's better at 2 than at 10.

I was more referencing Odd's:

originally posted by Odd Rydland:

originally posted by SFJoe:
You know, they age pretty well, but I'm not sure I like them better old than young.

Isn't that the case for quite a lot of Syrah?

Though in truth, I'm not entirely sure where I was going. Not having too much experience with truly aged Syrah, I guess I was curious if folks thought the variety was inherently youthful. Plenty of legendary Hermitage and Cote Rotie that I haven't drunk provide copious examples to the contrary, of course. Moving along...

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Seth Hill:
Plenty of legendary Hermitage and Cote Rotie that I haven't drunk provide copious examples to the contrary, of course. Moving along...

I don't know. Certainly less than the 'classic' regions of Bordeaux and Burgundy.

 

[mlawton]

matter of personal taste, I'd say. I'd much rather drink a 1989 Clape Cornas than a 1989 Lynch Bages but I'm sure that's a minority opinion.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Seth Hill:
Plenty of legendary Hermitage and Cote Rotie that I haven't drunk provide copious examples to the contrary, of course. Moving along...

I don't know. Certainly less than the 'classic' regions of Bordeaux and Burgundy.

Actually, a lot of it has to do with how the wines are made. As recently as Livingstone-Learmonth's 1983 edition (if not the 1992 edition -- I don't have time to check) on the wines of the Rhne, he spoke of how wines such as Cornas and Hermitage needed at least a decade of aging to be drinkable. Same for other older texts, hence the old designation of Hermitage as the "manliest" of wines. Changes in winemaking beginning in the 1980s have made Northern Rhnes much more approachable young than they used to be.

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

Actually, a lot of it has to do with how the wines are made. As recently as Livingstone-Learmonth's 1983 edition (if not the 1992 edition -- I don't have time to check) on the wines of the Rhne, he spoke of how wines such as Cornas and Hermitage needed at least a decade of aging to be drinkable. Same for other older texts, hence the old designation of Hermitage as the "manliest" of wines. Changes in winemaking beginning in the 1980s have made Northern Rhnes much more approachable young than they used to be.

That's certainly been my experience, as well (I know, JLL is so in need of my support). I first essayed Cornas from the early '80s, and I would never advise anyone to drink one of those monsters before age 10 at a minimum. I still haven't really readjusted my attitude, and frankly don't feel very inclined to start.

Mark Lipton

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by mlawton:
matter of personal taste, I'd say. I'd much rather drink a 1989 Clape Cornas than a 1989 Lynch Bages but I'm sure that's a minority opinion.

In a way. My preferences are much more inclined towards the Northern Rhone than Bordeaux. But the point I wanted to make was that there are maybe a dozen (two dozen maximum?) of Northern Rhone producers with wines that are going to be cellared for serious lengths of time (20+ years). Much more to be found in Bordeaux and Burgundy.

 

[Seth Hill]

I did wonder if I had killed the '99 Allemand Reynaud too early- it was lovely after some air, but there certainly was plenty of stuffing for a lot longer evolution. Not gonna second-guess, though- it was a good occasion to open it, it showed well, and was well enjoyed. That said, I'd love to hit the single bottle of '89 Jaboulet La Chapelle in my cellar a point. Anyone have any recent data points?

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

In a way. My preferences are much more inclined towards the Northern Rhone than Bordeaux. But the point I wanted to make was that there are maybe a dozen (two dozen maximum?) of Northern Rhone producers with wines that are going to be cellared for serious lengths of time (20+ years). Much more to be found in Bordeaux and Burgundy.

Rhasaan, I'd take issue with you there, although there is some ambiguity about what you are saying.

If you mean that there are at most two dozen producers in the Northern Rhne producing wines capable of aging 20+ years, your number is too small. Also, because the number of Northern Rhne producers is so much smaller than in Burgundy and Bordeaux, the absolute number, as opposed to the percentage of total producers, doesn't really say that much. Even so, for contemporary claret, I'm not sure how long most of it is going to last.

If you intend the literal meaning of what you wrote, i.e., all that matters is how many people's wines are being cellared, even if the wines of others that are drunk up young are capable of aging, I still would say that your number is too low.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Also, because the number of Northern Rhne producers is so much smaller than in Burgundy and Bordeaux, the absolute number, as opposed to the percentage of total producers, doesn't really say that much.

That is the key point. I was wondering about that but don't have the data.

My hunch was that the age-worthy wines go much further down the Burgundy and Bordeaux hierarchy in comparison to the Northern Rhone, but I'm absolutely willing to accept more informed opinions to the contrary.

 

[mlawton]

wow, that's taking a lot of different ingredients and making one terrine, Rahsaan.

I'm nto sure how I'd make a quantitative, meaningful assessment on those terms.

I've found a lot of good, cheap, ageworthy Burgundies and Northern Rhones.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by mlawton:
I'm nto sure how I'd make a quantitative, meaningful assessment on those terms.

I've found a lot of good, cheap, ageworthy Burgundies and Northern Rhones.

Yes. Ok.

 

[BJ]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Also, because the number of Northern Rhne producers is so much smaller than in Burgundy and Bordeaux, the absolute number, as opposed to the percentage of total producers, doesn't really say that much.

That is the key point. I was wondering about that but don't have the data.

My hunch was that the age-worthy wines go much further down the Burgundy and Bordeaux hierarchy in comparison to the Northern Rhone, but I'm absolutely willing to accept more informed opinions to the contrary.

Uh...no.