Can 2002 Sancerre be premoxed?

originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by .sasha:
I am still waiting for reports on non-canine Monts Damnes 2002. My butler drank up all of mine. Jeff, Kay, Don ?

(SFJoe, 2 feet was a low estimate)
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OK, won't look for you today. But Central Park only got 8", so I suppose the cellar will be open.
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That's what MSNBC said, Joe. The Times and the Weather Channel both report 11.4 inches in Central Park.

How close are you to Milford, Sasha? They apparently got 38"!
 
Well, if anyone wants to do an impromptu Thomas-Labaille 2002 tasting, I'll be in the cellar later if I can get some work done now.
 
originally posted by nigel groundwater:
Whatever else, would you really consider a 2002 Sancerre premoxed today rather than [perhaps] being a bit more ‘oxed’ or even just ‘more evolved’ than previous experience?
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Honestly, no. I think it's just ox, for the reasons you mention. But I do wonder about the trajectory of the wines, from tasting this particular bottling earlier in life and other vintages. One of the revelations for me in Loire whites was the version SFJoe poured at what I think was the first 360 dinner in Red Hook. When was that, 2004, or thereabouts? Maybe the wine was late 1990s? I don't think it was ten years old, but it was the first serious Sancerre that made me stop and take notice.
 
originally posted by .sasha:
I am still waiting for reports on non-canine Monts Damnes 2002. My butler drank up all of mine. Jeff, Kay, Don ?
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None left. My records show there was a lot of 04-05 but never much 02 at my house.

Around 1' snow here, maybe only 8". Cellar and a show.
 
I've had tons of both Cotats at various ages and I've really just decided I don't care for it aged.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
Well, if anyone wants to do an impromptu Thomas-Labaille 2002 tasting, I'll be in the cellar later if I can get some work done now.
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not fair
 
i visited thomas labaille in mid-october and mentioned that his 2005 monts damnes was a wine i dearly loved and that i had purchased a case of it on release. his first question was whether i still had any. i told him i finished a good while ago, which he said was a good thing.
 
originally posted by robert ames:
i visited thomas labaille in mid-october and mentioned that his 2005 monts damnes was a wine i dearly loved and that i had purchased a case of it on release. his first question was whether i still had any. i told him i finished a good while ago, which he said was a good thing.
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Hmmmmm, thanks for the update. Just pulled the canine version from storage.
 
originally posted by .sasha:
I am still waiting for reports on non-canine Monts Damnes 2002. My butler drank up all of mine. Jeff, Kay, Don ?

(SFJoe, 2 feet was a low estimate)
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Non here either. I like them best right off the shelf.
 
originally posted by Jay Miller:
originally posted by .sasha:
originally posted by SFJoe:
Well, if anyone wants to do an impromptu Thomas-Labaille 2002 tasting, I'll be in the cellar later if I can get some work done now.
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not fair
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ditto. I've been stuck in the office today.
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My condolences to all stranded comrades.

2002 T-L regular was very satisfactory today, though if you were paranoid, you might have detected a hint of caramel in the finish. But nothing disfiguring.

2002 T-L Buster was more than satisfactory, with a long mineral finish that was refreshingly tart. It has always had deeper color than the regular, probably from the elevage, and retains that, but if anything it was fresher than the regular.

Time to drink both of them (but not urgently). These were two good bottles.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by .sasha:
I am still waiting for reports on non-canine Monts Damnes 2002. My butler drank up all of mine. Jeff, Kay, Don ?

(SFJoe, 2 feet was a low estimate)
Click to expand...
OK, won't look for you today. But Central Park only got 8", so I suppose the cellar will be open.

Nigel, I like my Cotats (and Vatans) with more age than you do. You buy a wider range of Sancerre than I do, too. Henri Bourgeois doesn't really find a spot in my cellar. But you are probably right about Thomas-Labaille.
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Well Joe I guess you must like really old Sancerre because, as I said, our Cotat wines [both Francois's & Pascal's] are among the relatively few that get serious cellar time in our house. Or at least some of them do - mainly because they can.

Vatan's Clos la Neore is not the easiest wine for us to get hold of [like the Cotats we usually find them outside Sancerre/Chavignol elsewhere in the Loire] but like Dagueneau's Pouillys and Sancerre will age nicely although I don't have any of Edmond's i.e. pre 2008 Clos la Neore left. However we have some of Anne's wines and enjoyed the 2008 recently. No doubt they will continue to evolve positively.

However I would be surprised if you couldn't find a wine to [really] enjoy in the enormous range [10 white Sancerres last time I counted plus Sancerre reds and roses, Pouillys and wines from other Loire appellations] produced by Henri Bourgeois which includes good agers as well as those intended for shorter term consumption.

Of course if you have tasted them all as well as the aged versions in their Chavignol facility and can't find at least one to love perhaps our tastes diverge considerably although I can admit to finding a lot of producers I enjoy beyond those already mentioned in this thread.
For example the well crafted but quite expensive Alphonse Mellot range [red and white], Vacheron's wines [red and white] plus several other producers like Andre Dezat whose considerably less expensive red, white and rose wines provide exceptional value - although I am sure the former at least are also known to Disorderlies even if they do not necessarily find favour with everyone.

On balance though we find even the best Sancerres provide the flexibility that their equivalents in e.g. Muscadet also supply i.e. a range of drinking over an extended period starting early with only a few benefiting from some years to integrate and improve in the bottle. I don't think of either region as I do Bordeaux, Burgundy or even the Rhone even on the white side where considerable bottle age can be a requirement as an integral part of the producer’s intentions/winemaking. Indeed it would be interesting to know what each Sancerre winemaker’s drinking from/to expectations are for their wines.

I know and expect that certain Sancerres will taste good 10 years and beyond
[otherwise I wouldn’t have bought some 2001s last year] but I know these same wines will already have provided happy if different drinking for many years previously. I also recognise that my wife’s general preference for younger wines also affects the period over which we drink them since the first of a case is always broached fairly early with the exceptions noted above. However I have no complaints since I like [most of] them young too.

Glad to hear though that your 2002 T-Ls did so well. BTW I know how ‘the Buster’ came about but I have never had it. Is it a USA only cuvee? I must remember to ask when we are in Chavignol at the end of July. The two main whites we buy from them currently are the l’Authentique and les Aristides.

BTW I am really enjoying your current Loire threads but will not drift this one by saying more here
 
Drift is not a sin, Nigel, but chime in where and when you like.

T-L's "Aristides" is sold in the US as the regular Montes Damnees cuvee. The "Buster" corresponds to "La Fleur de Galifard." LDM didn't import the "Authentique" until fairly recently.

I have a pretty strong preference to buy wines that have long drinking windows, it takes the pressure off my sloppy inventory management.

I don't feel the connection or excitement with the wines of Henri Bourgeois & Co. that I do with the T-L's, Vatans, or Cotats. Guys who work their own vines, who don't yeast, who do a bunch of other things right, are in a different box to me than very competent and successful large-scale negociants.

Gerard Boulay has made some good wines, but I don't get to taste them regularly.
 
If it is any help, '99 Francois C. Grande Cote is drinking beautifully right out of bottle at cellar temp right now. RS nicely balanced by zipping saliva-inducing acidity, with a haunting grapefruit peel aromatic and slightly bitter finish. I can't recall this one young, but it is plenty lively and fresh right now, with complexity to spare.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
Drift is not a sin, Nigel, but chime in where and when you like.

T-L's "Aristides" is sold in the US as the regular Montes Damnees cuvee. The "Buster" corresponds to "La Fleur de Galifard." LDM didn't import the "Authentique" until fairly recently.

I have a pretty strong preference to buy wines that have long drinking windows, it takes the pressure off my sloppy inventory management.

I don't feel the connection or excitement with the wines of Henri Bourgeois & Co. that I do with the T-L's, Vatans, or Cotats. Guys who work their own vines, who don't yeast, who do a bunch of other things right, are in a different box to me than very competent and successful large-scale negociants.

Gerard Boulay has made some good wines, but I don't get to taste them regularly.
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Thanks for the Buster info Joe. I hadn't realised it was the equivalent of the Galifard.

AFAIK the huge Bourgeois operation is not all negociant since they appear to have a large owned set of vineyards [72 hectares of 120 parcels providing over half their total production and all, I assume, of various top cuvees] which they work organically, no chemicals etc etc but essentially we are happy to buy quite a number of their wines [La Bourgeoise, d'Antan - not fined or filtered, Jadis et al] simply because their tasting facility makes them all available, they taste good and I cannot detect any 'industrial' character in their winemaking.

Even their negociant wines seem well made. Buy, hey, I am not trying to persuade you but simply to say that we regularly buy from 6-9 producers in and around Sancerre and enjoy them all with T-L prominent amongst them - not least because they are available and excellent value for money and just across the road from the best restaurant in the area.

Of course we like the Cotats [more difficult to get hold of], Dagueneau [now hardly good value for money] and Vatan [even more difficult to buy partly I assume because most is destined for the USA] the T-Ls and other smaller owner/producers too but spend no time trying to decide on the basis of which is the more 'natural' in their winemaking.
 
I would not mind seeing a bit more of Hippolyte Reverdy on my table, and, atypically for me in Sancerre, in all three colours. This is also true of T-L; I am not even sure I've seen any of his reds or pinks in the States, but the ones presented in the cellar were right up my alley, bearing the mark of a light hand.
 
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