Rate of corked wines

[Unknown]

originally posted by richard slicker:

i assume that means he is using the lalique/suckling 1000 points! bottles.

or else he is fucked.

fb.

no, but the bottles can only be manufactured during full moon

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by nigel groundwater:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Anyone know how this ardeaseal thingy works and how it avoids the usual plastic cork woes?

Oswaldo

This:

Loading…

ardeaseal.com

will hopefully give you what you want with Ponsot himself explaining it.
A key issue for ensuring its performance is that specialist equipment is required for its insertion and failure to do it properly can cause [serious] problems.

Thanks for that Nigel.

Despite pro-Ponsot bias, the explanation did not persuade, and (with all due respect) may be reason to avoid these bottlings. He starts by saying that natural cork oxygenates "randomly" and he wants a closure that will oxygenate "with regularity." I wonder how one chooses the desirable rate, assuming it's not, as some here believe, zero.

But that's not the main reason for worry.

The problem with plastic corks, afaik, is that the sponginess is inferior and the sealing pressure of the smooth plastic surface against the glass is lower, making it more permeable. There is no discussion here about why this particular plastic cork would pressure the glass any better, and I don't see how the rigid frame or medical grade plastic tip is going to make it tighter. At worst, this could be a train wreck in the making, one of those that later seems predictable in hindsight. Time to start drinking Domaine des Chezeaux.

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

Despite pro-Ponsot bias, the explanation did not persuade, and (with all due respect) may be reason to avoid these bottlings. He starts by saying that natural cork oxygenates "randomly" and he wants a closure that will oxygenate "with regularity." I wonder how one chooses the desirable rate, assuming it's not, as some here believe, zero.

Oswaldo, the AWRI among others has conducted studies of oxygen transit and found the lowest value for corks. Those corks were also associated with the best outcomes for aging, so their oxygen transport value were taken as the "ideal." Of course, this assumes that a lower value wouldn't be even better, but that's an argument for another day.

The problem with plastic corks, afaik, is that the sponginess is inferior and the sealing pressure of the smooth plastic surface against the glass is lower, making it more permeable. There is no discussion here about why this particular plastic cork would pressure the glass any better, and I don't see how the rigid frame or medical grade plastic tip is going to make it tighter. At worst, this could be a train wreck in the making, one of those that later seems predictable in hindsight. Time to start drinking Domaine des Chezeaux.

The problems with plastic corks is that they lose elasticity with time, thus compromising the seal they make with the bottle. In essence, they become too rigid and no longer conform perfectly to the contours of the bottle. I am willing to believe that certain elastomers (plastics) would perform better, but I would want to see the 20-year trials to make sure that they won't fail in the long term.

Mark Lipton

 

[Oliver McCrum]

Mark,

I thought that screwcap had the lowest oxygen transmission in the AWRI trial. As I understand it the problem with bark corks is that the range of OT is very wide, so that whatever the ideal OT is, most cork doesn't meet it.

A company is working on an improved screwcap with a better liner, and varying levels of OT, so winemakers can match the wine to the closure. They also have an interesting paper about OT and wine aging on their website; go to http://www.vinperfect.com/contact-us and click on 'white paper.' They too say that cork OT is so variable as to be 'random.'

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Oliver McCrum:
...click on 'white paper.'

I think it's also bundled inside one of their no-signup-required docs, starting at p.7: click

 

[Chris Coad]

My rate of corked wines has quite literally been reduced by three-quarters over the last five years, going from between 7-8% in the mid-2000s to around 2% now, or even just a little shy of that.

Mostly, I suspect, because a lot of our daily wines now have screwcaps or plastic corks.

 

[nigel groundwater]

originally posted by Chris Coad:
My rate of corked wines has quite literally been reduced by three-quarters over the last five years, going from between 7-8% in the mid-2000s to around 2% now, or even just a little shy of that.

Mostly, I suspect, because a lot of our daily wines now have screwcaps or plastic corks.

A percentage 'corked' rate presumably only has real meaning [in cork terms] if the sample relates only to cork-closed wines. Even then individual experiences will vary due to the random distribution of TCA-affected bottles and large variances in individual thresholds.
However if there is a major change in the ratio of non-cork closed bottles to cork-closed bottles consumed over the periods being compared the perception of an overall reduction could be pretty meaningless in terms of TCA in cork generally since one might reasonably assume that non-cork-closed wines would [almost always] be TCA-free.

The major change in TCA in cork, particularly for people below the norm of TCA recognition and detection thresholds, is likely to have started to become obvious for vintages from the second half of the last decade [e.g. 94% with less than 2ppt of which 76% had less than 1 ppt in 2006] and for super-sensitives more recently than that [e.g. 98% had less than 2ppt of which 94% had less than 1ppt in 2010]. For those above the average threshold the change would have started earlier than 2006.

If individual consumption continues to include a significant number of bottles from the 80s and the 90s [particularly] the occurrence of % of TCA bottles experienced will tend to have been sustained at higher levels.

Claude specifically referred to "current releases" in his originating post of this thread when he referred to +/- 1% versus 8-10% 10-12 years ago. So if posts do not relate to fairly recent vintages of cork-closed wines the figures given are not going to be meaningfully comparable.

And if non-cork-closed wines are included and constitute an increased proportion in the calculation/estimate/guesstimate of %TCA experienced recently the 'dilution' by the inclusion of such non-cork-closed wines would tend to have the opposite effect of any bottles from the 80s and 90s.

 

[Chris Coad]

originally posted by nigel groundwater:

originally posted by Chris Coad:
My rate of corked wines has quite literally been reduced by three-quarters over the last five years, going from between 7-8% in the mid-2000s to around 2% now, or even just a little shy of that.

Mostly, I suspect, because a lot of our daily wines now have screwcaps or plastic corks.

A percentage 'corked' rate presumably only has real meaning [in cork terms] if the sample relates only to cork-closed wines. Even then individual experiences will vary due to the random distribution of TCA-affected bottles and large variances in individual thresholds.
However if there is a major change in the ratio of non-cork closed bottles to cork-closed bottles consumed over the periods being compared the perception of an overall reduction could be pretty meaningless in terms of TCA in cork generally since one might reasonably assume that non-cork-closed wines would [almost always] be TCA-free.

The major change in TCA in cork, particularly for people below the norm of TCA recognition and detection thresholds, is likely to have started to become obvious for vintages from the second half of the last decade [e.g. 94% with less than 2ppt of which 76% had less than 1 ppt in 2006] and for super-sensitives more recently than that [e.g. 98% had less than 2ppt of which 94% had less than 1ppt in 2010]. For those above the average threshold the change would have started earlier than 2006.

If individual consumption continues to include a significant number of bottles from the 80s and the 90s [particularly] the occurrence of % of TCA bottles experienced will tend to have been sustained at higher levels.

Claude specifically referred to "current releases" in his originating post of this thread when he referred to +/- 1% versus 8-10% 10-12 years ago. So if posts do not relate to fairly recent vintages of cork-closed wines the figures given are not going to be meaningfully comparable.

And if non-cork-closed wines are included and constitute an increased proportion in the calculation/estimate/guesstimate of %TCA experienced recently the 'dilution' by the inclusion of such non-cork-closed wines would tend to have the opposite effect of any bottles from the 80s and 90s.

Precisely.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

[No message]

 

[Chris Coad]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
< giggle >

It's good to know we're all on the same page here.

 

[nigel groundwater]

originally posted by Chris Coad:

originally posted by nigel groundwater:

originally posted by Chris Coad:
My rate of corked wines has quite literally been reduced by three-quarters over the last five years, going from between 7-8% in the mid-2000s to around 2% now, or even just a little shy of that.

Mostly, I suspect, because a lot of our daily wines now have screwcaps or plastic corks.

A percentage 'corked' rate presumably only has real meaning [in cork terms] if the sample relates only to cork-closed wines. Even then individual experiences will vary due to the random distribution of TCA-affected bottles and large variances in individual thresholds.
However if there is a major change in the ratio of non-cork closed bottles to cork-closed bottles consumed over the periods being compared the perception of an overall reduction could be pretty meaningless in terms of TCA in cork generally since one might reasonably assume that non-cork-closed wines would [almost always] be TCA-free.

The major change in TCA in cork, particularly for people below the norm of TCA recognition and detection thresholds, is likely to have started to become obvious for vintages from the second half of the last decade [e.g. 94% with less than 2ppt of which 76% had less than 1 ppt in 2006] and for super-sensitives more recently than that [e.g. 98% had less than 2ppt of which 94% had less than 1ppt in 2010]. For those above the average threshold the change would have started earlier than 2006.

If individual consumption continues to include a significant number of bottles from the 80s and the 90s [particularly] the occurrence of % of TCA bottles experienced will tend to have been sustained at higher levels.

Claude specifically referred to "current releases" in his originating post of this thread when he referred to +/- 1% versus 8-10% 10-12 years ago. So if posts do not relate to fairly recent vintages of cork-closed wines the figures given are not going to be meaningfully comparable.

And if non-cork-closed wines are included and constitute an increased proportion in the calculation/estimate/guesstimate of %TCA experienced recently the 'dilution' by the inclusion of such non-cork-closed wines would tend to have the opposite effect of any bottles from the 80s and 90s.

Precisely.

Ah I see. You suspect you, personally, may not have seen a significant reduction in TCA in cork closed wines even in recent vintages? WaBoFW

 

[Chris Coad]

originally posted by nigel groundwater:

originally posted by Chris Coad:

originally posted by nigel groundwater:

originally posted by Chris Coad:
My rate of corked wines has quite literally been reduced by three-quarters over the last five years, going from between 7-8% in the mid-2000s to around 2% now, or even just a little shy of that.

Mostly, I suspect, because a lot of our daily wines now have screwcaps or plastic corks.

A percentage 'corked' rate presumably only has real meaning [in cork terms] if the sample relates only to cork-closed wines. Even then individual experiences will vary due to the random distribution of TCA-affected bottles and large variances in individual thresholds.
However if there is a major change in the ratio of non-cork closed bottles to cork-closed bottles consumed over the periods being compared the perception of an overall reduction could be pretty meaningless in terms of TCA in cork generally since one might reasonably assume that non-cork-closed wines would [almost always] be TCA-free.

The major change in TCA in cork, particularly for people below the norm of TCA recognition and detection thresholds, is likely to have started to become obvious for vintages from the second half of the last decade [e.g. 94% with less than 2ppt of which 76% had less than 1 ppt in 2006] and for super-sensitives more recently than that [e.g. 98% had less than 2ppt of which 94% had less than 1ppt in 2010]. For those above the average threshold the change would have started earlier than 2006.

If individual consumption continues to include a significant number of bottles from the 80s and the 90s [particularly] the occurrence of % of TCA bottles experienced will tend to have been sustained at higher levels.

Claude specifically referred to "current releases" in his originating post of this thread when he referred to +/- 1% versus 8-10% 10-12 years ago. So if posts do not relate to fairly recent vintages of cork-closed wines the figures given are not going to be meaningfully comparable.

And if non-cork-closed wines are included and constitute an increased proportion in the calculation/estimate/guesstimate of %TCA experienced recently the 'dilution' by the inclusion of such non-cork-closed wines would tend to have the opposite effect of any bottles from the 80s and 90s.

Precisely.

Ah I see. You suspect you, personally, may not have seen a significant reduction in TCA in cork closed wines even in recent vintages? WaBoFW

Was I unclear?

If so, I apologize. I thought our similar conclusions were basically one and the same.

I did play WaBoFW in a gamers' guild in the early 2010s, but my Paladin Archmage half-elf met with an early demise, sad to say. RIP, but she lives on in memory.

 

[Unknown]

the rate at which i have noticed haloanisoles in bottles of german hooch under cork this year is a big fat zero (i have had 6 bottles of corked screw cap wine, though -- 3 bottles each of the same two wines that were slightly but annoying tainted by haloanisoles, which presumably originated somewhere else in the chain); on the other hand, the frenchies are currently running at about 20%.

i'm sure that both values will regress to something like their notional means at some point, but unless i get to drink an infinite number of bottles*, i will doubtless carry on feeding the fatsink in ignorance of what they are.

* if the bored is willing to underwrite my efforts, i am willing to take this one for the team.

fb.

 

[nigel groundwater]

originally posted by Chris Coad:

originally posted by nigel groundwater:

originally posted by Chris Coad:

originally posted by nigel groundwater:

originally posted by Chris Coad:
My rate of corked wines has quite literally been reduced by three-quarters over the last five years, going from between 7-8% in the mid-2000s to around 2% now, or even just a little shy of that.

Mostly, I suspect, because a lot of our daily wines now have screwcaps or plastic corks.

A percentage 'corked' rate presumably only has real meaning [in cork terms] if the sample relates only to cork-closed wines. Even then individual experiences will vary due to the random distribution of TCA-affected bottles and large variances in individual thresholds.
However if there is a major change in the ratio of non-cork closed bottles to cork-closed bottles consumed over the periods being compared the perception of an overall reduction could be pretty meaningless in terms of TCA in cork generally since one might reasonably assume that non-cork-closed wines would [almost always] be TCA-free.

The major change in TCA in cork, particularly for people below the norm of TCA recognition and detection thresholds, is likely to have started to become obvious for vintages from the second half of the last decade [e.g. 94% with less than 2ppt of which 76% had less than 1 ppt in 2006] and for super-sensitives more recently than that [e.g. 98% had less than 2ppt of which 94% had less than 1ppt in 2010]. For those above the average threshold the change would have started earlier than 2006.

If individual consumption continues to include a significant number of bottles from the 80s and the 90s [particularly] the occurrence of % of TCA bottles experienced will tend to have been sustained at higher levels.

Claude specifically referred to "current releases" in his originating post of this thread when he referred to +/- 1% versus 8-10% 10-12 years ago. So if posts do not relate to fairly recent vintages of cork-closed wines the figures given are not going to be meaningfully comparable.

And if non-cork-closed wines are included and constitute an increased proportion in the calculation/estimate/guesstimate of %TCA experienced recently the 'dilution' by the inclusion of such non-cork-closed wines would tend to have the opposite effect of any bottles from the 80s and 90s.

Precisely.

Ah I see. You suspect you, personally, may not have seen a significant reduction in TCA in cork closed wines even in recent vintages? WaBoFW

Was I unclear?

If so, I apologize. I thought our similar conclusions were basically one and the same.

I did play WaBoFW in a gamers' guild in the early 2010s, but my Paladin Archmage half-elf met with an early demise, sad to say. RIP, but she lives on in memory.

No apologies due except possibly from me for wasting time. I had thought that, just maybe, it was worth trying to see if there was some sort of internally coherent consensus here with rational qualifications based on Claude Kolm’s initial post.

It seems that won’t be possible, perhaps because, for some, it is considered too flaky to be worth the effort or, for others, that cork is just too passé when so many better alternatives make such questions redundant.

BTW nothing so exotic as a half-elf ever graced WaBoFW which is a simple 'giggle' response.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by richard slicker:
i have had 6 bottles of corked screw cap wine

OTOH, my last 6 bottles of screw capped cork wine were by definition problem free.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by richard slicker:
i have had 6 bottles of corked screw cap wine

OTOH, my last 6 bottles of screw capped cork wine were by definition problem free.

The bored WD board members will forgive, one hopes, bringing up the ol' canard about screw caps: reduction.

Screw caps are not *by definition* problem free. Though the wine is TCA-free, there have been issues with mercaptans and other off-odors in the not-too-recent past.

My experience is as anecdotal as everyone else's regarding the lower number of corked wines now vs. several years ago. For example: out of approximately 50 bottles consumed of 2010 Pépière muscadet classique only one was corked.

VLM may wish to chime in on the negligible sampling size and the complete lack of statistical significance.

The only thing this may prove is that Marc Olivier is using pretty decent corks resulting in very few TCA laced wine(s).

 

[Unknown]

originally posted by mark e:

Screw caps are not *by definition* problem free. Though the wine is TCA-free, there have been issues with mercaptans and other off-odors in the not-too-recent past.

the exponential one -

I suspect these aromatic complications, which should be about as obvious as TCA, are being addressed and will perhaps be resolved. What concerns me more are the differences on the palate, which I can't attribute to reduction alone per se to the extent that I am familiar with wines significantly reduced under cork; a certain simplification of flavours, possibly at the cost of essential varietal characteristics. Does this bother you at all? It is of course entirely possible that, as aromatic issues are being addressed, the flavour profile will sort itself out as well.

 

[Brad Kane]

originally posted by .sasha:

originally posted by mark e:

Screw caps are not *by definition* problem free. Though the wine is TCA-free, there have been issues with mercaptans and other off-odors in the not-too-recent past.

the exponential one -

I suspect these aromatic complications, which should be about as obvious as TCA...

Hearing you say "as obvious as tca" is funny. Tee hee!

 

[Yixin]

It was Marc's Muscadet where I had the most TCA issues.

 

[Unknown]

originally posted by Brad Kane:

originally posted by .sasha:

originally posted by mark e:

Screw caps are not *by definition* problem free. Though the wine is TCA-free, there have been issues with mercaptans and other off-odors in the not-too-recent past.

the exponential one -

I suspect these aromatic complications, which should be about as obvious as TCA...

Hearing you say "as obvious as tca" is funny. Tee hee!

Put a lid on it, mon ami

1997 jokes are wearing off