Rate of corked wines

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
What I thought I recalled was that a Barolo maker built a fancy new winery and, before its inaugural vintage, they found TCA in the varnishes (or something) that had been used to paint or seal all the wood. Everything had to be torn out and redone.

But I will defer to the aggregate memory. I must have conflated Altare's cork batch problem with something else.

Are you thinking of Fred Magnien in Burgundy? He lost a whole vintage worth of wines because the problem wasn't discovered until after the facility was in use.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Are you thinking of Fred Magnien in Burgundy? He lost a whole vintage worth of wines because the problem wasn't discovered until after the facility was in use.

Thanks, Claude. Reading what Google says about it, that story fits the general form of my recollection pretty well. But I can't say that I recall the Magnien name.

 

[Chris Coad]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by SFJoe:
Oh, you think you can suck me in, but you can't.

Because you're smarter than Marc Angeli?

I beat Marc Angeli at backgammon every single time.

EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

This is not luck we're talking, people. Just sayin'.

 

[Chris Coad]

originally posted by nigel groundwater:

originally posted by Chris Coad:

originally posted by nigel groundwater:

originally posted by richard slicker:

originally posted by mark e:

Screw caps are not *by definition* problem free. Though the wine is TCA-free, there have been issues with mercaptans and other off-odors in the not-too-recent past.

nope. i have had two wines recently that were tca ruined under screwcap. the fact that every bottle i've tried was the same merely confirms that they were fucked prior to bottling.

turns out that there are lots of ways that shit can end up in finished wines. bad barrels, chlorinated water left lying about... bad corks are a common way for those nasty haloanisoles to end up in your glass, but they are far from the only way.

fb.

Hell yes. There's a whole industry making part of its living by removing haloanisoles from wineries and food plants and if corks had been used instead of screwcaps in those two wines they would have ended up carrying the can for the TCA contamination.

Of course if the winery [barrels, pallets, hoses, wooden structures, insulation, water supply] is at fault [enormously less common than the cork although with the improvements underway all things eventually approach the omega point] even screwcaps with a saranex [one of the best TCA attracting materials known - moonlights as original Saran Wrap] liner can become tainted in their vicinity. As indeed can any closure made with plastic or cork materials as well as any accessible wine since haloanisoles manage airborne transfers very effectively.

IIRC the AWRI's 2008 technical report commented that of the 9 haloanisole faults they investigated that year 4 of them were winery related.

Precisely.

Thank you

Thank YOU for backing up my conclusions.

 

[nigel groundwater]

While cork has overwhelmingly cause[d] TCA problems in wine the 4 winery-based [out of 9] haloanisoles incidents contained in the Australian Wine Research Institute’s 2008 report suggests that the tainting of wine by winery-based haloanisoles from a variety of sources is still in no way underwhelming or unimportant.

With TCA in the newly produced corks of the major producers declining below the vast majority of detection and recognition thresholds general haloanisole contaminations from Tribromoanisole [which has even been found in pharmaceutical products] along with Tetrachloro- and Pentachloroanisole are a widely dispersed occurrence in the environment threatening far more than wine.
This requires all closures even the new ones, particularly DIAM and the polyvinylidene chloride/polyethylene liner screwcaps, and of course natural cork, to be protected from the general environment up to the point they close the bottle.

Even in the past, winery infections were not rare events and major examples include many wines from the 80s and 90s vintages where chloroanisoles, including TCA, from winery infections affected the wines of major Chateaux such as Latour, Ducru-Beaucaillou, Gazin, Canon, Gruaud-Larose et al. And not by just a little since the prime examples were measured in double and some in 3 figure parts per trillion although environmental contamination of wine is not usually that high. Most long term drinkers of high-end claret will have experienced non-cork TCA as well of course as the 'real' thing.

Winery infections have occurred all over the world and major rebuilding has often been required to rectify them.
In the USA notable examples include Hanzell, Montelena and Gallo plus other less notorious incidents. The Hanzell incident [well handled by its principals] served as a publicised red flag for US wineries against the dangers of the use of chlorine based cleaning products in a winery but many of these problems relate to previous wood treatments from pesticides to fire retardants like Pentachlorophenol and Tribromophenol. The banning of some compounds and knowledge of how insidious these products can be should already have had a major containment effect but vectors such as water supplies, transportation containers and pallets are more difficult for winemakers to police.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Chris Coad:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by SFJoe:
Oh, you think you can suck me in, but you can't.

Because you're smarter than Marc Angeli?

I beat Marc Angeli at backgammon every single time.

EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

This is not luck we're talking, people. Just sayin'.

Ah, but can you beat him at mini golf?

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Ah, but can you beat him at mini golf?

With or without the drugs?

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Are you thinking of Fred Magnien in Burgundy? He lost a whole vintage worth of wines because the problem wasn't discovered until after the facility was in use.

Thanks, Claude. Reading what Google says about it, that story fits the general form of my recollection pretty well. But I can't say that I recall the Magnien name.

Probably because they were/are a NBW import. 'Nuff said.

Mark Lipton

 

[Oliver McCrum]

originally posted by nigel groundwater:
While cork has overwhelmingly cause[d] TCA problems in wine the 4 winery-based [out of 9] haloanisoles incidents contained in the Australian Wine Research Institute’s 2008 report suggests that the tainting of wine by winery-based haloanisoles from a variety of sources is still in no way underwhelming or unimportant.

With TCA in the newly produced corks of the major producers declining below the vast majority of detection and recognition thresholds general haloanisole contaminations from Tribromoanisole [which has even been found in pharmaceutical products] along with Tetrachloro- and Pentachloroanisole are a widely dispersed occurrence in the environment threatening far more than wine.
This requires all closures even the new ones, particularly DIAM and the polyvinylidene chloride/polyethylene liner screwcaps, and of course natural cork, to be protected from the general environment up to the point they close the bottle.

Even in the past, winery infections were not rare events and major examples include many wines from the 80s and 90s vintages where chloroanisoles, including TCA, from winery infections affected the wines of major Chateaux such as Latour, Ducru-Beaucaillou, Gazin, Canon, Gruaud-Larose et al. And not by just a little since the prime examples were measured in double and some in 3 figure parts per million although environmental contamination of wine is not usually that high. Most long term drinkers of high-end claret will have experienced non-cork TCA as well of course as the 'real' thing.

Winery infections have occurred all over the world and major rebuilding has often been required to rectify them.
In the USA notable examples include Hanzell, Montelena and Gallo plus other less notorious incidents. The Hanzell incident [well handled by its principals] served as a publicised red flag for US wineries against the dangers of the use of chlorine based cleaning products in a winery but many of these problems relate to previous wood treatments from pesticides to fire retardants like Pentachlorophenol and Tribromophenol. The banning of some compounds and knowledge of how insidious these products can be should already have had a major containment effect but vectors such as water supplies, transportation containers and pallets are more difficult for winemakers to police.

All true, but it has no bearing on the problems caused by cork closures. If every bottle of a given wine you open is roughly similarly corked, you know what the problem is. Enviromental TCA is a problem for the few affected wineries; cork-caused problems affect every winery that uses cork, which is to say the great majority of wineries. It's a red herring.

 

[nigel groundwater]

originally posted by Oliver McCrum:

originally posted by nigel groundwater:
While cork has overwhelmingly cause[d] TCA problems in wine the 4 winery-based [out of 9] haloanisoles incidents contained in the Australian Wine Research Institute’s 2008 report suggests that the tainting of wine by winery-based haloanisoles from a variety of sources is still in no way underwhelming or unimportant.

With TCA in the newly produced corks of the major producers declining below the vast majority of detection and recognition thresholds general haloanisole contaminations from Tribromoanisole [which has even been found in pharmaceutical products] along with Tetrachloro- and Pentachloroanisole are a widely dispersed occurrence in the environment threatening far more than wine.
This requires all closures even the new ones, particularly DIAM and the polyvinylidene chloride/polyethylene liner screwcaps, and of course natural cork, to be protected from the general environment up to the point they close the bottle.

Even in the past, winery infections were not rare events and major examples include many wines from the 80s and 90s vintages where chloroanisoles, including TCA, from winery infections affected the wines of major Chateaux such as Latour, Ducru-Beaucaillou, Gazin, Canon, Gruaud-Larose et al. And not by just a little since the prime examples were measured in double and some in 3 figure parts per trillion although environmental contamination of wine is not usually that high. Most long term drinkers of high-end claret will have experienced non-cork TCA as well of course as the 'real' thing.

Winery infections have occurred all over the world and major rebuilding has often been required to rectify them.
In the USA notable examples include Hanzell, Montelena and Gallo plus other less notorious incidents. The Hanzell incident [well handled by its principals] served as a publicised red flag for US wineries against the dangers of the use of chlorine based cleaning products in a winery but many of these problems relate to previous wood treatments from pesticides to fire retardants like Pentachlorophenol and Tribromophenol. The banning of some compounds and knowledge of how insidious these products can be should already have had a major containment effect but vectors such as water supplies, transportation containers and pallets are more difficult for winemakers to police.

All true, but it has no bearing on the problems caused by cork closures. If every bottle of a given wine you open is roughly similarly corked, you know what the problem is. Enviromental TCA is a problem for the few affected wineries; cork-caused problems affect every winery that uses cork, which is to say the great majority of wineries. It's a red herring.

Did you understand my first sentence?
Of course, by definition, "non-cork generated haloanisoles [it] has no bearing on the problems caused by cork closures". Now that is a true non-sequitur although it clearly has a bearing on the total spoilage of wine by haloanisoles.

But in case you hadn't noticed the thread originated about the experience of TCA in wine being greatly reduced. The incidence of TCA will of course include all sources not just cork [although you seem to see only the dreadful past and no possibility of an acceptable improvement] so no red herring in a situation where TCA in cork production has been generally reduced to levels below recognition and detection thresholds and vectors other than cork continue to exist.

As a self-styled supersensitive if, as you report, you have only just experienced your first wine with a non-cork related haloanisole fault either you have never drunk e.g. from a large repertoire of cru classe claret like Ducru-Beaucaillou or Latour [including Les Forts] from the 90s or you are perhaps less TCA sensitive than you believe.

Individual winemakers will continue to decide which of the many increasingly effective closures best suits their winemaking with purely ‘marketing’ considerations becoming less of a deterrent to change as alternatives prove their effectiveness, particularly for certain wines and wine types.

 

[SFJoe]

Precisely.

 

[Chris Coad]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Chris Coad:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by SFJoe:
Oh, you think you can suck me in, but you can't.

Because you're smarter than Marc Angeli?

I beat Marc Angeli at backgammon every single time.

EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

This is not luck we're talking, people. Just sayin'.

Ah, but can you beat him at mini golf?

Are you kidding? The man's a master.

 

[BJ]

Poor nigel.

 

[Oliver McCrum]

originally posted by nigel groundwater:

originally posted by Oliver McCrum:

originally posted by nigel groundwater:
While cork has overwhelmingly cause[d] TCA problems in wine the 4 winery-based [out of 9] haloanisoles incidents contained in the Australian Wine Research Institute’s 2008 report suggests that the tainting of wine by winery-based haloanisoles from a variety of sources is still in no way underwhelming or unimportant.

With TCA in the newly produced corks of the major producers declining below the vast majority of detection and recognition thresholds general haloanisole contaminations from Tribromoanisole [which has even been found in pharmaceutical products] along with Tetrachloro- and Pentachloroanisole are a widely dispersed occurrence in the environment threatening far more than wine.
This requires all closures even the new ones, particularly DIAM and the polyvinylidene chloride/polyethylene liner screwcaps, and of course natural cork, to be protected from the general environment up to the point they close the bottle.

Even in the past, winery infections were not rare events and major examples include many wines from the 80s and 90s vintages where chloroanisoles, including TCA, from winery infections affected the wines of major Chateaux such as Latour, Ducru-Beaucaillou, Gazin, Canon, Gruaud-Larose et al. And not by just a little since the prime examples were measured in double and some in 3 figure parts per million although environmental contamination of wine is not usually that high. Most long term drinkers of high-end claret will have experienced non-cork TCA as well of course as the 'real' thing.

Winery infections have occurred all over the world and major rebuilding has often been required to rectify them.
In the USA notable examples include Hanzell, Montelena and Gallo plus other less notorious incidents. The Hanzell incident [well handled by its principals] served as a publicised red flag for US wineries against the dangers of the use of chlorine based cleaning products in a winery but many of these problems relate to previous wood treatments from pesticides to fire retardants like Pentachlorophenol and Tribromophenol. The banning of some compounds and knowledge of how insidious these products can be should already have had a major containment effect but vectors such as water supplies, transportation containers and pallets are more difficult for winemakers to police.

All true, but it has no bearing on the problems caused by cork closures. If every bottle of a given wine you open is roughly similarly corked, you know what the problem is. Enviromental TCA is a problem for the few affected wineries; cork-caused problems affect every winery that uses cork, which is to say the great majority of wineries. It's a red herring.

Did you understand my first sentence?
Of course, by definition, "non-cork generated haloanisoles [it] has no bearing on the problems caused by cork closures". Now that is a true non-sequitur although it clearly has a bearing on the total spoilage of wine by haloanisoles.

But in case you hadn't noticed the thread originated about the experience of TCA in wine being greatly reduced. The incidence of TCA will of course include all sources not just cork [although you seem to see only the dreadful past and no possibility of an acceptable improvement] so no red herring in a situation where TCA in cork production has been generally reduced to levels below recognition and detection thresholds and vectors other than cork continue to exist.

As a self-styled supersensitive if, as you report, you have only just experienced your first wine with a non-cork related haloanisole fault either you have never drunk e.g. from a large repertoire of cru classe claret like Ducru-Beaucaillou or Latour [including Les Forts] from the 90s or you are perhaps less TCA sensitive than you believe.

Individual winemakers will continue to decide which of the many increasingly effective closures best suits their winemaking with purely ‘marketing’ considerations becoming less of a deterrent to change as alternatives prove their effectiveness, particularly for certain wines and wine types.

Cool out, Nigel.

This 'self-styled supersensitive' doesn't drink Bordeaux made after 1981 or so, so that repertoire passed me by, thank heavens.

And I am in complete agreement with your last paragraph, which is lovely.

 

[nigel groundwater]

originally posted by Oliver McCrum:

originally posted by nigel groundwater:

originally posted by Oliver McCrum:

originally posted by nigel groundwater:
While cork has overwhelmingly cause[d] TCA problems in wine the 4 winery-based [out of 9] haloanisoles incidents contained in the Australian Wine Research Institute’s 2008 report suggests that the tainting of wine by winery-based haloanisoles from a variety of sources is still in no way underwhelming or unimportant.

With TCA in the newly produced corks of the major producers declining below the vast majority of detection and recognition thresholds general haloanisole contaminations from Tribromoanisole [which has even been found in pharmaceutical products] along with Tetrachloro- and Pentachloroanisole are a widely dispersed occurrence in the environment threatening far more than wine.
This requires all closures even the new ones, particularly DIAM and the polyvinylidene chloride/polyethylene liner screwcaps, and of course natural cork, to be protected from the general environment up to the point they close the bottle.

Even in the past, winery infections were not rare events and major examples include many wines from the 80s and 90s vintages where chloroanisoles, including TCA, from winery infections affected the wines of major Chateaux such as Latour, Ducru-Beaucaillou, Gazin, Canon, Gruaud-Larose et al. And not by just a little since the prime examples were measured in double and some in 3 figure parts per trillion although environmental contamination of wine is not usually that high. Most long term drinkers of high-end claret will have experienced non-cork TCA as well of course as the 'real' thing.

Winery infections have occurred all over the world and major rebuilding has often been required to rectify them.
In the USA notable examples include Hanzell, Montelena and Gallo plus other less notorious incidents. The Hanzell incident [well handled by its principals] served as a publicised red flag for US wineries against the dangers of the use of chlorine based cleaning products in a winery but many of these problems relate to previous wood treatments from pesticides to fire retardants like Pentachlorophenol and Tribromophenol. The banning of some compounds and knowledge of how insidious these products can be should already have had a major containment effect but vectors such as water supplies, transportation containers and pallets are more difficult for winemakers to police.

All true, but it has no bearing on the problems caused by cork closures. If every bottle of a given wine you open is roughly similarly corked, you know what the problem is. Enviromental TCA is a problem for the few affected wineries; cork-caused problems affect every winery that uses cork, which is to say the great majority of wineries. It's a red herring.

Did you understand my first sentence?
Of course, by definition, "non-cork generated haloanisoles [it] has no bearing on the problems caused by cork closures". Now that is a true non-sequitur although it clearly has a bearing on the total spoilage of wine by haloanisoles.

But in case you hadn't noticed the thread originated about the experience of TCA in wine being greatly reduced. The incidence of TCA will of course include all sources not just cork [although you seem to see only the dreadful past and no possibility of an acceptable improvement] so no red herring in a situation where TCA in cork production has been generally reduced to levels below recognition and detection thresholds and vectors other than cork continue to exist.

As a self-styled supersensitive if, as you report, you have only just experienced your first wine with a non-cork related haloanisole fault either you have never drunk e.g. from a large repertoire of cru classe claret like Ducru-Beaucaillou or Latour [including Les Forts] from the 90s or you are perhaps less TCA sensitive than you believe.

Individual winemakers will continue to decide which of the many increasingly effective closures best suits their winemaking with purely ‘marketing’ considerations becoming less of a deterrent to change as alternatives prove their effectiveness, particularly for certain wines and wine types.

Cool out, Nigel.

This 'self-styled supersensitive' doesn't drink Bordeaux made after 1981 or so, so that repertoire passed me by, thank heavens.

And I am in complete agreement with your last paragraph, which is lovely.

Well 'lovely' it is Oliver as long as you understand that "the many increasingly effective closures" will include natural cork in its 'new' specification.

Most recognise that any closure is a key part of the finished product and all have potential disadvantages as well as advantages.

One day there may be a single type of closure that does the job for all producers and their [different] wines but until then there will be horses for courses with most of the negatives increasingly under control.

As research continues across the board it isn't clear [since wine chemistry is not yet so perfectly understood] whether such a closure yet exists even in an early form. Perhaps something like one of the Penfolds ideas of a glass on glass closure will be another breakthrough although it is difficult to see how that would be consistent with the current focus on the search for some defined level of oxtrans. OTOH perhaps further development of liner technology, or the DIAM process or the Ardeaseal will provide the answer.

Meanwhile you apparently accept that cork has improved although you cannot seem to bring yourself to trust the published data even though it seems to be in line with [most] anecdotal experience of TCA in recent vintages.

It seems equally clear that cork will never be good enough for you although I assume you will just have to hold your nose and grit your teeth as many of the world's top wines continue to be closed with it until a final all-round champion is [ever] found.

You may personally feel it already has been but most fine wine producers are yet to be convinced and even those that have changed have made a range of different choices some of which have been highlighted in this thread.

 

[Politburo]

Nigel,

You might let Oliver inform us about his internal mental states as he experiences them, rather than providing that info yourself.

-P

 

[nigel groundwater]

originally posted by politburo:
Nigel,

You might let Oliver inform us about his internal mental states as he experiences them, rather than providing that info yourself.

-P

I thought he had. My comments were an attempt [obviously poor] to summarise them in seeking to agree with his last paragraph.

I am clearly unfamiliar with the politics of this board but when the politburo find it necessary to intervene it is obviously time to say goodnight.

 

[SFJoe]

Such a crappy couple of days.

2002 Overnoy Chardonnay
2000 Raveneau Monts Mains
2001 Guiseppe Mascarello Codana
2010 Franck Balthazar Cornas Chaillot.

Kinda hate it all.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by SFJoe:
Such a crappy couple of days.

2002 Overnoy Chardonnay
2000 Raveneau Monts Mains
2001 Guiseppe Mascarello Codana
2010 Franck Balthazar Cornas Chaillot.

Kinda hate it all.

Ouch. Over the years I have read little other than complaints about the corks in the "Codana". I fear for my couple of bottles.

 

[SFJoe]

Oh, and Nigel, why kill yourself when you haven't been executed?