Deutsche Memories

R

Rahsaan

Rahsaan
Have been in Germany for the past couple of weeks drinking lots of wine with the family, much of it interesting in its own curious way but not particularly memorable. However these two bottles from the past two days have stood out.

The 2008 Juliusspital Würzburger Stein Riesling Spätlese Trocken GG was a glorious bottle of firm ripe rippling verdant riesling stalk with such clear definition and cut. It was brilliant with a chanterelle quiche and kept me happy all night. Please buy more for my next visit!

2009 Bergdolt Buntsandstein Ruppertsberg Riesling Kabinett Trocken was another winner that was surprisingly open for 2009 (at least given my expectations). Such nice fruit and such nice tingly structure. I had tasted Bergoldt weissbugunders and spatburgunders before, but this gave me so much pleasure I rushed out and bought some older-vintage (2002) Bergdolt riesling to see how it ages.
 
Two very great producers. Believe it or not, Bergdolt has never exported to US, even though they are willing to do so if anyone knocks on their door, and prices are cheap and all three types of wine -- Riesling, Weißburgunder, and Spätlese are among the very best around. Don't miss the Juliusspital Silvaners, either.
 
I don't drink or buy a lot of Juliusspital but amazing that they can keep turning out nice wines because the operation is a massive conglomerate. Perhaps all that matters is enough attention to the right wines. And I suppose having good land in places like Würzburger Stein doesn't hurt either.
 
Too funny, Rahsaan. I ran into Juliusspital wines for the first while lunching at the Ratskeller in Munich, not the sort of place that I look for quality wines. The meter-high faux wine barrel advertisement for them didn't help either. Is Würzburg known for good vineyards? News to me.

Mark Lipton
 
Juliusspital is a huge operation -- 1.2 million bottles a year at all levels, but even the basic supermarket wines are more than just drinkable -- preiswertig, as they say. And the holdings in the top vineyards include Würzburger Stein, Iphöfer Julius-Echterberg, Randersacker Pfülben, Escherndorfer Lump -- all the greatest sites in the Main Dreieck and Steigerwald that are not monopoles (i.e., Würzburger Stein-Harfe and Castell Schloßberg). And there's Volkach Karthäuser, Würzburger Innere Leiste and others, too.

Bürgerspital, with Robert Haller, formerly at Löwenstein, now in charge is about 2/3 the size of Juliusspital and is also making super wines and has super sites.

But then there's also Knoll, the Sauers, Bickel-Stumpf, Schmitt's Kinder, Ruck, etc, etc. -- don't get me started on Franken.
 
Claude,

How many of those producers allow spontaneous fermentations, work with wooden casks, avoid chemicals in the vineyards, etc (or any combination of these)? Having not visited the region I realize how uninformed my opinion is, but it strikes me from the few wines I've tasted that the Frankeners love their stainless steel tanks, their cultured yeasts and temperature-control. I'd love to learn about anyone who might be a little less hands-on.
 
John --

1. Things are changing in Franken -- faster than you'd think. I've got the answers in my visit notes, but I'm not going to take the time to dig them out and pore through them.

2. I'm an empiricist, not an ideologue. Decades of visiting producers has taught me that there is no one formula that works for all great producers. If you limit it just to the categories that you list above, you'd exclude some of the most justly famous producers of Germany (which were surprises to me when I made inquiries as to methods -- see first sentence of this paragraph).
 
Thanks, Claude. I hope I didn't imply that I expect all producers to follow a formula to make great wine. I think the one I described (stainless steel tanks, cultured yeasts and temperature-control, combined with conventional farming and healthy doses of sulfur at crush and bottling) is a pretty reliable formula for dull wine, but obviously each of those techniques on their own isn't necessarily a cause for alarm.
 
originally posted by John Ritchie:
Thanks, Claude. I hope I didn't imply that I expect all producers to follow a formula to make great wine. I think the one I described (stainless steel tanks, cultured yeasts and temperature-control, combined with conventional farming and healthy doses of sulfur at crush and bottling) is a pretty reliable formula for dull wine, but obviously each of those techniques on their own isn't necessarily a cause for alarm.
Click to expand...

You'd be surprised at a longtime very great name in the Mosel that, AFAIK, follows just that formula. Nevertheless, you don't find greater wines than come from that estate, and very rarely wines as great.

And it's not just Germany. A sizeable number of the greatest Burgundy producers don't follow the organic/biodynamic plan, and filter, to boot. And cultured yeasts -- ever had some of the great wines that Bernard Maume made back in the 1970s and 1980s?
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
I'm an empiricist, not an ideologue.
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juliusspital is not a "very great producer"; nor even close. so explain.

fb.
 
originally posted by fatboy:
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
I'm an empiricist, not an ideologue.
Click to expand...

juliusspital is not a "very great producer"; nor even close. so explain.

fb.
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I taste ten to twenty new-release wines from Juliusspital every year. I've visited at Würzburg several times (and will again next month). I also discuss their wines with other producers. A top German importer told me that if he could take on any Franken producer he wanted (other than what he already had), it would be Juliusspital. What's the basis for your contrary opinion?
 
I'd happily drink any older Maume I come across for educational purposes. Great terroir with particularly old ungrafted vines can surely make up a lot of things done in the cellar, as can residual sugar. A dizzying number of other factors play a role as well. I believe I also said:

originally posted by John Ritchie:
obviously each of those techniques on their own isn't necessarily a cause for alarm.
Click to expand...
 
originally posted by John Ritchie:
I'd happily drink any older Maume I come across for educational purposes. Great terroir with particularly old ungrafted vines
Click to expand...
[/quote]Old, yes (in part). Ungrafted, no.
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
What's the basis for your contrary opinion?
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the wines. all that "well made," yeasted up the wahzoo, poorly farmed crap that they put in the bottle each year. sure, the wines aren't totally garbage: they are merely the kind of soulless industrial crap that demean what i understand by, "very great producer."

though, to be honest, the idea of actually drinking that shit appalls me more than the above conveys.

fb.
 
originally posted by fatboy:
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
What's the basis for your contrary opinion?
Click to expand...

the wines. all that "well made," yeasted up the wahzoo, poorly farmed crap that they put in the bottle each year. sure, the wines aren't totally garbage: they are merely the kind of soulless industrial crap that demean what i understand by, "very great producer."

though, to be honest, the idea of actually drinking that shit appalls me more than the above conveys.

fb.
Click to expand...
Well, so far, you haven't demonstrated how much, if any, empirical experience you have with the wines, have you? It's just an opinion unsupported by any experience. As judges used to say when I was in court (and undoubtedly they still do) -- we'll admit it and give it the weight it's worth. (Which is unrelated to your girth.)
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:

Well, so far, you haven't demonstrated how much, if any, empirical experience you have with the wines, have you? It's just an opinion unsupported by any experience.
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oh shit. did i forget to mention that i talk to top importers, or that i visit germany on my vacations too?

fb.
 
You still haven't told me how many, if any, bottles you have tried, and if any, of what.

Why do you avoid direct answers to simple questions?
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
You still haven't told me how many, if any, bottles you have tried, and if any, of what.

Why do you avoid direct answers to simple questions?
Click to expand...

uh, where was it that you told me how many, if any, bottles you had "tried," and if any, of what?

all i saw was mentions of industrial tastings and "top" opinions.

as you may know, i'm not in the habit of "trying" large swathes of industrial crap. but the fact is, the fatschloß is in southern germany, and almost every wine shop and restaurant around its walls sells shitty juliusspital wines. except they are not really shitty, as i said ealier. in some places, i am glad to see them because the alternatives are even worse. which means that i have drunk (nb. drunk, not "tried," whatever limp shit that is) most of the ortsweine & erste lage from the last several vintages a few times at least.

which is the basis for my comment above, namely that juliusspital is high end industrial plonk.

fb.
 
originally posted by fatboy:
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
You still haven't told me how many, if any, bottles you have tried, and if any, of what.

Why do you avoid direct answers to simple questions?
Click to expand...

uh, where was it that you told me how many, if any, bottles you had "tried," and if any, of what?

all i saw was mentions of industrial tastings and "top" opinions.
Click to expand...
Sorry, you are wrong here. See above where I said that I try 10-20 wines a year and sometimes have the bottles to try for several days. They are not at "industrial tastings" but usually on individual visits to the producer and also at the Wiesbaden GG. I sometimes also taste them here is SF through the local importer.

as you may know, i'm not in the habit of "trying" large swathes of industrial crap.
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No, I don't know. Not sure this is relevant, but if it is, please elaborate.

but the fact is, the fatschloß is in southern germany, and almost every wine shop and restaurant around its walls sells shitty juliusspital wines. except they are not really shitty, as i said ealier. in some places, i am glad to see them because the alternatives are even worse. which means that i have drunk (nb. drunk, not "tried," whatever limp shit that is) most of the ortsweine & erste lage from the last several vintages a few times at least.

which is the basis for my comment above, namely that juliusspital is high end industrial plonk.

fb.
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So is there any reason why you can't just say that based on your experience, we have different judgments, instead of acting as though your view is the only one that anyone should accept and anyone who disagrees doesn't know what s/he is talking about? Your resemblance to Parker comes across as more than just fat. Why can't you accept diversity of honest, informed opinion and keep to logical forms of argument? Do you act this way in your academic life, too (I've known more than a few academics who act that way)?
 
So is there any reason why you can't just say that based on your experience, we have different judgments, instead of acting as though your view is the only one that anyone should accept and anyone who disagrees doesn't know what s/he is talking about?
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you are the lawyer claude. and you are the dude who described juliusspital as a "very great producer."

all i did was to demur. because i can't see any reason why anyone who cares even vaguely about wine as anything other than hooch for teh lubrication would describe juliusspital as a "very great producer." i still honestly don't, because i know the wines, and i honestly believe them to be well made industrial plonk at best.

so seriously, given even the vaguest understanding of burden of proof, who resembles the great satan more? a wine critic casually throwing around terms like, "very great producer" to describe makers of industrial quantities of silvaner that taste more of the yeasts that they inoculate them with than the grape itself, or a fat guy who merely wishes to point out that in his opinion, that producer is not, "very great," and that readers rushing out and spending their zlotys thus might be somewhat disappointed?

fb.
 
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