Geranium Taint?

S

Seth Hill

Seth Hill
How often do you other Disorderlies run into 2-ethoxy-3,5-hexadiene? I've only had a couple- and both of those were returns (one at Chambers St., one tonight here at The Wine Bottega). I'm not all that frequently smelling geraniums, and it seems like it'd more often be systemic at the winery, so I question whatever I've smelled in this instance is it. But it does seem floral, and by process of elimination...

Thoughts?
 
Fairly frequently in certain types of Champagne that I don't tend to prefer. Otherwise, almost never.
 
originally posted by Seth Hill:
Geranium Taint?How often do you other Disorderlies run into 2-ethoxy-3,5-hexadiene?
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I've used it on a couple of sophomore organic exams. Does that count?

I've only had a couple- and both of those were returns (one at Chambers St., one tonight here at The Wine Bottega). I'm not all that frequently smelling geraniums, and it seems like it'd more often be systemic at the winery, so I question whatever I've smelled in this instance is it. But it does seem floral, and by process of elimination...
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Is it considered a flaw? I've only found it occasionally, usually in Gamay from the Loire, and I've always thought of it as an aspect of terroir. Are you perhaps thinking instead of geosmin? That does arise from contamination and can be systemic.

Mark Lipton

p.s. That compound name is actually in error. Using IUPAC systematic nomenclature rules, it should be 5-ethoxy-1,3-hexadiene. Googling for that name turns up some interesting results.
 
From Tom Stevenson's edge-of-your-seat-exciting glossary of wine aromas hosted on Tom Cannavan's site:

GERANIUM
Granium (F) Geranie (G) Geranio (I) Geranio (S)
Sorbic acid (preservative that prevents refermentation in sweet wine, but has no effect on its bacterial activity) without sufficient SO2 is prone to breakdown by lactic bacteria, causing strong geranium odour (2-ethoxy-3.5-hexadiene), although other compounds can produce a similar smell, such as those created during the oxidation of geraniol (old Asti).
Hexa-2,4,dienol, 2-ethoxy hexa-3,5-diene, glycyrrhyzin, geraniol dehydrogenase
 
originally posted by Thor:
From Tom Stevenson's edge-of-your-seat-exciting glossary of wine aromas hosted on Tom Cannavan's site:

GERANIUM
Granium (F) Geranie (G) Geranio (I) Geranio (S)
Sorbic acid (preservative that prevents refermentation in sweet wine, but has no effect on its bacterial activity) without sufficient SO2 is prone to breakdown by lactic bacteria, causing strong geranium odour (2-ethoxy-3.5-hexadiene), although other compounds can produce a similar smell, such as those created during the oxidation of geraniol (old Asti).
Hexa-2,4,dienol, 2-ethoxy hexa-3,5-diene, glycyrrhyzin, geraniol dehydrogenase
Click to expand...

This is what I was going on (and where I got the nomenclature). It's definitely not geosmin, which I know and love (well, a wee dab'll do ya. cf brett.).

I took one for the team and put it in my mouth. Blargh. It could be mannitol, perhaps. It was "viscous, ester-like combined with a sweet and irritating finish" to quote Wikipedia.

Maybe I'll buy my wife some flowers tomorrow so I can do the direct aroma comparison.
 
I do a lot of gardening and I know what geraniums smell like and I pick it up every once in awhile in wines from producers who might not be up on the latest techniques. I usually ascribe it to sorbic acid and mark it down as a flawed wine, but wtf, maybe it's a reflection of the terroir or something.

Picked it up in a bottle of 2004 Langlois-Chateau Chinon the other night. The wine was redolent of geraniums and freshly ground roadkill. It was kind of odd, in that I don't often experience coyote tartare (particularly not in a glass of wine) but there it was. I would have killed for some can green bean sensations or forest floor thingies that might be considered as flaws (or at least un-cabernet sauvignon-like). It was so oddly compelling that I tasted it and it was weirder on the palate than it was on the nose. Rather than pour it down the drain, I replaced the cork and returned the next day, only to discover that....it was just as wacked as before. Came back to it two days later and it had transformed into something that much more closely resembled something you'd have a reasonable expectation of seeing the name Breton or Joguet on the label. Was it glorious? No. Was it life-affirming? No. Was it potable? Most definitely! Probably even Potable+, but for $10, there was enough mystery and intrigue to justify the exhibition of patience required to experience the wine at its peak, regardless of how low it might have been.

-Eden (a 2001 Saumur Blanc VV from the same producer was much more typical, but cost $15)
 
originally posted by Eden Mylunsch:
I do a lot of gardening and I know what geraniums smell like and I pick it up every once in awhile in wines from producers who might not be up on the latest techniques. I usually ascribe it to sorbic acid and mark it down as a flawed wine, but wtf, maybe it's a reflection of the terroir or something.
Click to expand...

My understanding is that it was a not uncommon flaw a few decades ago, due to use of sorbate in vinification, typically in wines with RS, more often seen in the East than California. I haven't encountered it myself in quite a long time. I sometimes get what I call a "leafy" tone in young barbera, gamay and chenin, but it's more akin to that pleasant smell you get when you brush against a tomato plant.
 
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