Wine Storage Conditions

C

Claude Kolm

Claude Kolm
I see that we've got some people claiming that certain wines are not showing well because they came from a source that did not have good storage (and they've been rebutted on that -- I'm convinced that a number of people who claim heat damaged wine don't really know what they are talking about).

I pay enough heed to storage conditions that I spend thousands of dollars a year to store my wine in professional storage. Moreover, I can say that the same wine tasted here and in Europe almost always tastes fresher in Europe. And yet --

and yet, what about those wines that sat in unairconditioned cellars or above-ground warehouses and stores in Europe during the summer of 2003? More than ten years on, and no problems are apparent. We've got some people very knowledgeable about wine chemistry and other aspects on this board. What gives?
 
i know nothing about chemistry, but i do know that bottles drawn from teh infamous fatairfreightlines stash were quite astonishingly different to conventionally shipped bottles. freshness was the key difference.

i have dim recollections of more chemically savvy dudes talking to me about the way that tannins polymerise to form longer chains with loads of joggling, and how that might advance ageing, but honestly, at this point, i'm willing to put my own faith in teh evidence, which to my mind shows that a shipping phenomena, independent of heat, often seems real, whether it the result of bouncing on lengthy sea shipping "tiring" wines in this way or something else.

heat is another thing. i'm not joking when i say that i have never had a wine in indiana that wasn't fairly obviously heat marked to some degree.

it actually transforms the way i drink, because some wines seem to bear the weight of same than others.

others on teh bored have far more expertise on this shit than i, and i defer to them, but a last thought: the one thing i have noticed in recent years is how much heat trashed hooch i'm served in europe theses days, it seems to me that in previously cooler cities like berlin, your average shop/restaurant hasn't even begun to think about any of this.

how ever much i lament the slowly improving state of things in teh us, i fear that in europe, this shit will get worse before it gets better.

fb.
 
Claude, I see from my own notes that I've had just over 1,000 bottles of an ill-fated shipment that was poorly shipped since June 2012. Every bottle has been marked to some degree - Champagnes taste like they were disgorged five years ago (no bad thing in most cases), all the Vouvrays are showing far more phenolics on first pour, let's not talk about the Savoie Gamay or hipster Grolleau Noir from the Anjou, which have contributed to lord of the manor amounts of oxtail stew preparation and consumption in my household. I think there's a huge difference, and I don't think I've ever had a wine which showed the same in situ as it did elsewhere.
 
Certainly heat damage can be difficult to assess.

I am so careful with what I buy from wine purveyors and how I store it that I almost never encounter heat damage on my wines.

On the other hand, when I buy wine elsewhere e.g. in a restaurant, the damage has to be pretty significant before it can be identified (at least by me).

There is no doubt that in warm/hot environments like here in Houston there is a lot of heat damaged wine...probably much more than anyone would imagine.

. . . . . Pete
 
originally posted by Yixin:
Claude, I see from my own notes that I've had just over 1,000 bottles of an ill-fated shipment that was poorly shipped since June 2012. Every bottle has been marked to some degree - Champagnes taste like they were disgorged five years ago (no bad thing in most cases), all the Vouvrays are showing far more phenolics on first pour, let's not talk about the Savoie Gamay or hipster Grolleau Noir from the Anjou, which have contributed to lord of the manor amounts of oxtail stew preparation and consumption in my household. I think there's a huge difference, and I don't think I've ever had a wine which showed the same in situ as it did elsewhere.
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So what's your explanation for the wines that went through Summer of 2003 in Europe? Or have you found them all to be similarly ruined? One notable veteran importer who is famous for insisting that his wines be shipped in refrigerated containers told me of a visit in August 2003 to a cellar in Gevrey that I know well and that normally is quite cold. He said the wine from cask was actually hot -- he immediately cancelled his whole tasting trip. And yet from bottle, the wines from that cellar are quite good -- both the 2001s, which were bottled in spring 2003 and not shipped until fall, and the 2002s which spent the summer of 2003 in cask.

Degusto (a nom de plume that yixin knows from another board and who passed the summer of 2003 in Europe) said that even air conditioning in cellars couldn't help keep things cool in 2003.

A former participant on winetherapy who was in the trade said that he thought that it was not temperature (obviously up to a certain point), but rather vibration that made wines age/spoiled them when shipped to distant shores. I'm not expressing an opinion on this, just noting one point of view.
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
A former participant on winetherapy who was in the trade said that he thought that it was not temperature (obviously up to a certain point), but rather vibration that made wines age/spoiled them when shipped to distant shores. I'm not expressing an opinion on this, just noting one point of view.
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I've had plenty of wine from natural cellars in the United States, where temperature would get up into the high 60s in the summer, but would do so gradually. The wine was in good condition, sometimes excellent. No bottles were "frozen in time", but I rarely see those from professional storage either, unless it's at 50F or below.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
There's also the air v. sea variable, and how much vibration is generated by flying through choppy air. Just kidding. Not.
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this is why it's important to empty teh bottles before you throw them.

fb.
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
originally posted by Yixin:
Claude, I see from my own notes that I've had just over 1,000 bottles of an ill-fated shipment that was poorly shipped since June 2012. Every bottle has been marked to some degree - Champagnes taste like they were disgorged five years ago (no bad thing in most cases), all the Vouvrays are showing far more phenolics on first pour, let's not talk about the Savoie Gamay or hipster Grolleau Noir from the Anjou, which have contributed to lord of the manor amounts of oxtail stew preparation and consumption in my household. I think there's a huge difference, and I don't think I've ever had a wine which showed the same in situ as it did elsewhere.
Click to expand...

So what's your explanation for the wines that went through Summer of 2003 in Europe? Or have you found them all to be similarly ruined? One notable veteran importer who is famous for insisting that his wines be shipped in refrigerated containers told me of a visit in August 2003 to a cellar in Gevrey that I know well and that normally is quite cold. He said the wine from cask was actually hot -- he immediately cancelled his whole tasting trip. And yet from bottle, the wines from that cellar are quite good -- both the 2001s, which were bottled in spring 2003 and not shipped until fall, and the 2002s which spent the summer of 2003 in cask.

Degusto (a nom de plume that yixin knows from another board and who passed the summer of 2003 in Europe) said that even air conditioning in cellars couldn't help keep things cool in 2003.

A former participant on winetherapy who was in the trade said that he thought that it was not temperature (obviously up to a certain point), but rather vibration that made wines age/spoiled them when shipped to distant shores. I'm not expressing an opinion on this, just noting one point of view.
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Not a chemist, but...

1) heat damage sometimes isn't apparent for a while. So conceivable that it hasn't been long enough since 2003 yet.
2) bottles exposed to heat can have their cork seals broken and the wine oxidizes faster. Not heat damage per se, but it's a consequence of heat. Leaking bottles can be easily wiped up. Would also explain why a wine warm from cask has no issues since by the time they were bottled and shipped it was nice and cool.
 
originally posted by Gene Vilensky:
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
originally posted by Yixin:
Claude, I see from my own notes that I've had just over 1,000 bottles of an ill-fated shipment that was poorly shipped since June 2012. Every bottle has been marked to some degree - Champagnes taste like they were disgorged five years ago (no bad thing in most cases), all the Vouvrays are showing far more phenolics on first pour, let's not talk about the Savoie Gamay or hipster Grolleau Noir from the Anjou, which have contributed to lord of the manor amounts of oxtail stew preparation and consumption in my household. I think there's a huge difference, and I don't think I've ever had a wine which showed the same in situ as it did elsewhere.
Click to expand...

So what's your explanation for the wines that went through Summer of 2003 in Europe? Or have you found them all to be similarly ruined? One notable veteran importer who is famous for insisting that his wines be shipped in refrigerated containers told me of a visit in August 2003 to a cellar in Gevrey that I know well and that normally is quite cold. He said the wine from cask was actually hot -- he immediately cancelled his whole tasting trip. And yet from bottle, the wines from that cellar are quite good -- both the 2001s, which were bottled in spring 2003 and not shipped until fall, and the 2002s which spent the summer of 2003 in cask.

Degusto (a nom de plume that yixin knows from another board and who passed the summer of 2003 in Europe) said that even air conditioning in cellars couldn't help keep things cool in 2003.

A former participant on winetherapy who was in the trade said that he thought that it was not temperature (obviously up to a certain point), but rather vibration that made wines age/spoiled them when shipped to distant shores. I'm not expressing an opinion on this, just noting one point of view.
Click to expand...

Not a chemist, but...

1) heat damage sometimes isn't apparent for a while. So conceivable that it hasn't been long enough since 2003 yet.
2) bottles exposed to heat can have their cork seals broken and the wine oxidizes faster. Not heat damage per se, but it's a consequence of heat. Leaking bottles can be easily wiped up. Would also explain why a wine warm from cask has no issues since by the time they were bottled and shipped it was nice and cool.
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1) So 10+ years isn't sufficient? What is -- 20? 30? 50? At those ages (already at 10) bottle variation becomes a major factor. In other words, there is no way of demonstrating that there was any heat damage. Moreover, you're telling me that a bottle that was perfectly fine for 20 years suddenly shows damage from heat exposure that occurred 19 years before? What evidence is there for this sudden heat damage syndrome?

2. I've never seen a bottle of 2001 or 2000 with a protruding cork. (Indeed, here in the Bay Area, one almost never sees a protruding cork -- I think that's the kind of damage that occurs in delivery here in the US.) Moreover, what about wines that were in cask over the summer and so suffered their heat damage prior to bottling?

Bottom line: no one seems to be able to detect any heat damage in wines that went through the worst of conditions in summer 2003. And yet, no one is able to offer an explanation why this should be so if heat damage exists. I put the challenge out again -- what gives? Or do we not have empiricists on this board?

BTW, does anyone here specifically avoid 2001 or 2002s from Europe precisely because of the heat exposure that they had? If not, why not?
 
One of the big problems, Claude, is that any rigorous determination of heat damage requires access to a good negative control: a bottle that is known to be in pristine, non-heat damaged form. I have plenty of 2000 and 2001 wines from Europe, but since they all came through the same system they all would be subject to the same amount of heat damage. How, then, do I detect it if it's not the obvious maderization that all can ascribe to heat damage.

Several years ago I participated in an online experiment where a group of us bought some bottles in pairs, placing one in a temperature-controlled environment and another in a non-controlled environment (but not an extremely hot one). In my case, I took three different wines (NV Gruet sparkler, 2005 Perrin Reserve Cotes du Rhone and 2005 Torres Sangre de Toro) and aged them for two years, with one bottle in our passively cooled cellar and the other in an upstairs room that underwent daily temperature excursion of 5-10°F and annual variation of 30°F. Comparative tasting of the two bottles side-by-side demonstrated differences with no obvious pattern emerging. I was no better at identifying the "heat damaged" bottles than would be suggested by random chance.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
Maybe the wines were too crude?

On a more serious note, did other participants note any more consistent differences in theirs?
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Nope. My experiences were mirrored by the two other participants, though none of us sacrificed terribly expensive bottles in the exercise. However, other bottles subjected to this experiment were the '05 Clos de Briords, '06 Gysler Weinheimer Kabinett, '05 Faiveley Mercurey, '07 Chalone Chardonnay, '06 La Vieille Ferme Cotes de Ventoux, '06 Brun L'Ancien and '04 Pique Cailloux.

In a number of cases the poorly stored wine showed as slightly more advanced, but not with enough regularity to make a strong conclusion.

Mark Lipton
 
In answer to Claude's question: No, I do not avoid wines from 2001 or 2002 due to their 'exposure' to the heat of the summer of 2003. It is my belief that most wines are pretty durable so the 'damage' done by the weather occurred to the grapes on the living vines, not the preservative-laden stew that the winemaker did his best to protect.

I've certainly had wines that were ruined by heat somewhere in transit, with flavors of madeirization, beef broth, and even caramel. But it's uncommon. It is far easier to find wines from hot seasons that are flabby, roasty, and pruny.
 
originally posted by MLipton:
One of the big problems, Claude, is that any rigorous determination of heat damage requires access to a good negative control: a bottle that is known to be in pristine, non-heat damaged form.
Mark Lipton
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True, Mark, but there are 2000s and even 2001s that were here by early 2003 (and in the case of certain whites and Beaujolais, 2002 vintage that were here by then) and other examples of the same wines that came later, after having been exposed to the heat in 2003.

But even so, for many 2001s that weren't bottled until spring 2003 or 2002s that were bottled in 2003 or later, the entire production went through bad conditions (save for rare examples where they were in an airconditioned warehouse or store that really did stay cool), and yet no one complains of those vintages as having been compromised on a wholesale scale. In other words, unless one thinks there is something that makes 2000-2002 wines immune, "heat damage" seems often to be a convenient way of saying that the wine didn't show well and there is no other obvious explanation for why it didn't. But given the experience of many wines that we know from 2000-2002 that went through the great heat of 2003, "heat damage" should no longer be such a catch-all explanation, and indeed, we need to learn more about what heat damage really is.

Tom Hill -- not a chemist, but a physicist and so comfortable with interpreting whether results are statistically significant -- did an experiment with wines back in the 1970s similar to yours. He had a mixed case that he carried around in the trunk of his car for a year, and the same wines stored well during that period. After a year, the wines were tasted side-by-side, and no one could reliably pick out the "trunk" wines.
 
It figures that TomHill was there from the very start, Claude. His experiment reminds me of Scott Harvey's complaint about the comparative tasting done by Dave Darlington for "Angel's Visits": Scott claims that the bottle of his Zin used in that tasting had sat in the trunk of Darlington's car en route from Amador County to Sonoma during a hot summer day.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by MLipton:
Scott claims that the bottle of his Zin used in that tasting had sat in the trunk of Darlington's car en route from Amador County to Sonoma during a hot summer day.
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i think this is the point. much of the working swathe of teh fatcave now resides at ambient temperature in the attic of a 15th century nunnery (i feel it has to add character). when i moved into the place, i was worried that the hot summers would trash teh hooch, so i scored a big electrocave to care for the seriously weird unlsuphured shit. when that was all safe, i threw in some other crap.

after two summers, one of which was damn hot, i can't tell the difference between bottles from teh electrocave and those stored together in a cooler, darker spot. and trust me, i'm neurotically looking for flaws.

the thing, of course, is that there is a world of difference in the rate and absolute temperature change in several hundred tons of large, stone, medieval building and a car or a shipping container.

i walk into teh lobby of teh nunnery on a blistering day, and it feels positively chilly; i recall once burning my hand on the capsule of a bottle i'd left on the back seat of a car in boston over lunch.

as an empiricist, this makes me indifferent to the trauma suffered by wines held in reasonably well insulated buildings in europe in 2003, and just as irritated as i always was about shit exposed to extreme heat during shipping.

fb.
 
Rate of change of temperature is very different during a heatwave and shipping. Many Mosel cellars I visited remained relatively cool that summer. And this is way beyond my usual drinking pattern, but I've had much fresher bottles of e.g. 1998 Grand-Puy-Lacoste from a London cellar than from the estate (which saw the heatwave). Come to think of it, Rayas as well.
 
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