TN: Marc Hanes visits (Feb. 1, 2014)

[Oswaldo Costa]

Could a significant batch of freshly-bottled 02s have come to the States in August of 2003 and somehow simmered at some point along the way? Or is dat too early? Refrigerated containers can accidentally go days without electricity, as happened with Yixin, and one would imagine that this kind of info is imperfectly disseminated.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by Brad Kane:

originally posted by .sasha:

originally posted by Michael Lewis:

originally posted by MarkS:

Huet 2002 Vouvray Demi-Sec "Le Mont" - another premoxed bottle from the stash that Brad got at a good price

I don't think the price paid has anything to do with the premoxisation...

Perhaps they were closing out some poorly-stored bottles?

unlikely - at least based on some outstanding bottles from the same batch

Indeed. The bottles were purchased on closeout from the CT distributor my old company had recently purchased. They had been sitting in a temp controlled warehouse since Chadderdon brought them in. I picked them up in CT either in March or April on a day that was in the low 50s. Storage in this instance is not an issue.

The fact is, I and others here have had many premoxed bottles sourced from all over, from CA, other places in the West to many different sources in the tri-state area. At this point, one has to deduce that the problem lies either at the domaine, or with the national importer, but the fact that it seems to be only affecting the drier wines and given reports even in Europe of tired '02 Petillant, evidence seems to point to an issue at the domaine. My understanding, however, is that the domaine feels the problem may lie with their old importer. That begs the question, however, of why is this issue showing primarily with the '02s, then? What did Chadderdon do differently bringing them in, if he did in fact do anything different?

Sorry to bring back pedantry, but at this point in bored history, surely we should have eradicated this us of "begs the question" here.

 

[Brad Kane]

The whole batch would then be cooked, then, Oswaldo. Let's not forget, however, that these wines showed brilliantly until about '09 and there are still intact showings, on occasion, today.

 

[SFJoe]

Sure does seem like the good old p'ox.

I have had p'oxed Vouvray from other producers, so they are not immune.

Kills me. I have a ton of various 2002s, though I don't think I got any from Brad. I'm drinking up.

 

[Jay Miller]

originally posted by Brad Kane:
That begs the question, however, of why is this issue showing primarily with the '02s, then?

Ehem.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
...surely we should have eradicated this us[e] of "begs the question" here.

Shirley says, "Beggar safe than sorry!"

(She's a "nice" girl.)

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Brad Kane:
...but the fact that it seems to be only affecting the drier wines...

The wine under discussion is demi-sec; not all that dry, really.

 

[Michael Lewis]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

originally posted by Brad Kane:
...but the fact that it seems to be only affecting the drier wines...

The wine under discussion is demi-sec; not all that dry, really.

That is about as dry as Brad can tolerate...

ETA: I will now brace myself for the onslaught of oxidation jokes that Brad is about to unload.

 

[Brad Kane]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

originally posted by Brad Kane:
...but the fact that it seems to be only affecting the drier wines...

The wine under discussion is demi-sec; not all that dry, really.

Still counts and that's the bottling that has seen the most problems. None detected so far in Moelleux, or sweeter, afaik.

 

[Keith Levenberg]

Heat damage doesn't lie dormant for years and then strike randomly. Pox does.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

Hey, Chemists: If the problem is too much oxygen combined with various compounds in the wine, is there anyway to kick it back out?

 

[Jay Miller]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Heat damage doesn't lie dormant for years and then strike randomly. Pox does.

Although a slightly heat damaged wine can mature and fall apart on a much faster schedule. That said, this seems like the pox.

 

[Brad Kane]

originally posted by SFJoe:
Sure does seem like the good old p'ox.

I have had p'oxed Vouvray from other producers, so they are not immune.

From '02? I haven't seen any others from '02, though I do recall hearing murmurings about the vintage on release, but I can't recall what the doubters were saying and I've been unable to find anything on the Internet. I've seen issues with '95 and '96 Huet, Foreau, Baumard, Closel and Coulee de Serrant, all dry/semi-dry wines.

Let me amend that. I've always found the '96 Foreau Moelleux problematic.

 

[Yixin]

If it's heat damage, then bottles from the same case, not to mention the same container, can behave very differently. I have huge ullage (up to 2cm, or almost an inch) differences in bottles (same case) from the screwed up shipment. So, contrary to Keith's assertion, heat damage can seem pretty random. Heck, I still have hundreds of bottles (as well as control bottles), you're welcome to visit and try the wines.

I wonder how many commentators complaining of premature oxidation have had substantial experience with drinking a very ripe, high pH (for that style), low-ish sulfur, late disgorged sparkling Chenin Blanc at ~10 years of age? I certainly don't. I've walked away from multiple bottles of seemingly oxidised Chenin Blanc younger than 50 years, only to return weeks or months later to find that it's righted itself. Most recently a returned bottle of 2005 Clos du Papillon whom the restaurant did not decant and failed to educate their guest sufficiently. So leave those 2002s alone, and drink something else.

 

[Unknown]

originally posted by Yixin:

I wonder how many commentators complaining of premature oxidation have had substantial experience with drinking a very ripe, high pH (for that style), low-ish sulfur, late disgorged sparkling Chenin Blanc at ~10 years of age? I certainly don't. I've walked away from multiple bottles of seemingly oxidised Chenin Blanc younger than 50 years, only to return weeks or months later to find that it's righted itself.

not to mention well-made pinots. i have often carefully identified a dull, fruitless, slightly oxidised burgundy as a norwegian blue, only to have it bite my not insubstantial ass at a later date.

in fact, sad to admit it, i have wasted shit loads of good wine in this way.

what the yixster said.

fb.

 

[Unknown]

Not sure about dormant premox. It seemed that way, initially, but then you re-calibrate. A few 2008s producers would open in the fall of 2012 drew a "hey, this would have been a really lovely white burgundy if it was a 2000" reaction.

And then of course this approach will lead you to false positives, which is another reason why this whole thing sucks.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Yixin:
I have huge ullage (up to 2cm, or almost an inch) differences in bottles (same case) from the screwed up shipment.

yixin,

1. How do you know that the ullage differences didn't precede the screw-up with the shipment? I've had significant ullage differences within a single case that suffered no mistreatment.

2. Even if the ullage is due to the screw-up with the shipment, you're missing a link to tie ullage, instead of heat exposure, with oxidation. I've had many wonderful bottles that were seriously ullaged and I've had many bottles with no ullage whatsoever that had oxidized.

 

[Jim Hanlon]

originally posted by SFJoe:
Sure does seem like the good old p'ox.

I have had p'oxed Vouvray from other producers, so they are not immune.

Kills me. I have a ton of various 2002s, though I don't think I got any from Brad. I'm drinking up.

Are the premoxed bottles still somewhat enjoyable? I have less than a case of 2002 (other than Petillant) and, if the premoxed bottles are already flawed, would be inclined to hold them the normal course, with the idea of catching any intact bottles in their drinking window, rather than prematurely. That calculus obviously changes if the flawed bottles can still be enjoyed at present.

 

[Unknown]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:


1. How do you know that the ullage differences didn't precede the screw-up with the shipment? I've had significant ullage differences within a single case that suffered no mistreatment.

2. Even if the ullage is due to the screw-up with the shipment, you're missing a link to tie ullage, instead of heat exposure, with oxidation. I've had many wonderful bottles that were seriously ullaged and I've had many bottles with no ullage whatsoever that had oxidized.

remind me again. which quantitative science did you train in?

fb.

 

[Peter Creasey]

originally posted by Claude Kolm: . I've had many wonderful bottles that were seriously ullaged

Claude, Ullage with older (operative word being "older") wines has never been that big of a concern in my mind.

As just one example, I can remember discovering 9 bottles of a '59 Claret (it might have been Las Cases, but I'm not sure) that all had similarly significant ullage. They were really fine.

I had a leaky Beaucastel '89 the other night with significant ullage that was right on.

. . . . Pete