Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
Thank you, Karl Rove. That's how we know Saddam had WMD, right?
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Bernard Gripa St. Joseph 'Le Berceau' 2005
- Thread starter SFJoe
- Start date
John Roberts
John Roberts
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
My experiences are that up to about 20% (25%, maybe 30%, if demi-muids are being used) new oak is not really noticeable in the finished wine.
Not my experience.
And I'm curious, Claude, why you don't just post your tasting note for the wine rather than making oblique references to it? Phrases such as "My notes also include discussion of winemaking regime . . ." seem odd. Again, it would be more interesting if you just told us what they are.
What's your experience, Mark?
How many days have you spent in Northern Rhône cellars over the years?
How often do/did you visit?
Who have you visited?
Do you speak English or French with them (it makes a big difference, in many cases)?
Do you visit on your own or with an importer or an importer's representative?
Thanks, Claude, for posting the note. Am I mistaken, or is your tone a tad aggressive?
In any case, I was only referring to my experience tasting wine in general and, yes, being able to detect when small percentages of new oak were present. That's all.
Let's call it (more than) a tad frustrated.
I've written several posts in this thread and many in many other threads pointing out errors by people who claim to detect over-use of new oak on Syrah-based wines where, in many cases, there is no new oak, and in others, there is but very little. Obviously, there is a confusion of new oak with other characteristics. You've completely ignored this line of discussion, which questions the correctness of perceptions of new oak, and assumed the answer, that is, that your perceptions are correct. I've come back and asked how you know your perceptions are correct and that what you are calling new oak is not something else that resembles new oak. Until you can answer this question, your observation of new oak is meaningless.
God this is hard to listen to.
You first claimed that the Gripa reds see no new oak and that people mistakenly think that they taste new oak where there is none. Then it turns out you were wrong about oak on the Gripa reds but you claim that the second point still stands. Fine. But this thread might not be the most opportune place to make this point since, you know, the new oak was correctly identified in this case. If you're trying to make a broader point about how mark e, specifically, is unable to discern 20% new oak in a Northern Rhone Syrah, well, good luck with that. Not to mention it's a little unseemly that, upon being confronted with a mistake, your reaction is to become hyperaggressive. That's a Chris Christie tactic, and we hate him.
Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
originally posted by John Roberts:
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
My experiences are that up to about 20% (25%, maybe 30%, if demi-muids are being used) new oak is not really noticeable in the finished wine.
Not my experience.
And I'm curious, Claude, why you don't just post your tasting note for the wine rather than making oblique references to it? Phrases such as "My notes also include discussion of winemaking regime . . ." seem odd. Again, it would be more interesting if you just told us what they are.
What's your experience, Mark?
How many days have you spent in Northern Rhône cellars over the years?
How often do/did you visit?
Who have you visited?
Do you speak English or French with them (it makes a big difference, in many cases)?
Do you visit on your own or with an importer or an importer's representative?
Thanks, Claude, for posting the note. Am I mistaken, or is your tone a tad aggressive?
In any case, I was only referring to my experience tasting wine in general and, yes, being able to detect when small percentages of new oak were present. That's all.
Let's call it (more than) a tad frustrated.
I've written several posts in this thread and many in many other threads pointing out errors by people who claim to detect over-use of new oak on Syrah-based wines where, in many cases, there is no new oak, and in others, there is but very little. Obviously, there is a confusion of new oak with other characteristics. You've completely ignored this line of discussion, which questions the correctness of perceptions of new oak, and assumed the answer, that is, that your perceptions are correct. I've come back and asked how you know your perceptions are correct and that what you are calling new oak is not something else that resembles new oak. Until you can answer this question, your observation of new oak is meaningless.
God this is hard to listen to.
You first claimed that the Gripa reds see no new oak and that people mistakenly think that they taste new oak where there is none. Then it turns out you were wrong about oak on the Gripa reds but you claim that the second point still stands. Fine. But this thread might not be the most opportune place to make this point since, you know, the new oak was correctly identified in this case. If you're trying to make a broader point about how mark e, specifically, is unable to discern 20% new oak in a Northern Rhone Syrah, well, good luck with that. Not to mention it's a little unseemly that, upon being confronted with a mistake, your reaction is to become hyperaggressive. That's a Chris Christie tactic, and we hate him.
John -- I admit a mistake -- that I overlooked the JLL comment. But others here don't seem to want to admit the possibility -- just the possibility -- that they are mistaken. The fact is that I have seen many , many people (uh, including me) claim incorrectly to find too much new oak on Syrah because there isn't any or there is very little. It is a mistake that can be commonly made. The fact that I may have gotten Gripa's use wrong does not invalidate that fact. It's not a hyperaggressive response, it's just trying to set the record straight. Maybe Mark can discern oak on 20% new wood, but he's not shown us that he's gotten it right when so many others have gotten it wrong or, more importantly, that he understands the difference between oak and other oak-like qualities that do not come from new oak. I'm just asking for restraint -- e.g., "I've picked up oak-like qualities" instead of outright condemnation for new oak when in fact it's not certain that it is there. That's hyperaggressive?
John Roberts
John Roberts
If you maintain this tone it'll be smooth sailing from here on out.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Thank you, Karl Rove. That's how we know Saddam had WMD, right?originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Is there any place where people don't make up their own reality?
Hyperaggressive!
Zachary Ross
Zachary Ross
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
I'm just asking for restraint -- e.g., "I've picked up oak-like qualities" instead of outright condemnation for new oak when in fact it's not certain that it is there. That's hyperaggressive?
"I am still getting what tastes like oak after nine years" - Joe
"it seemed young, with a polished texture marked by oak" - me
"one was delicious; the other, very foursquare with riper fruit and showing what appeared to be oak" - Slaton
Outright condemnation, sure.
Sharon Bowman
Sharon Bowman
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Maybe Mark can discern oak on 20% new wood, but he's not shown us that he's gotten it right when so many others have gotten it wrong
Yeah, that makes sense.
Also, probably not the right place to talk about people getting things wrong when you originally cited the oak use on Gripa's white.
Claude,
Tasting is tricky. We have all been fooled now and again.
Chardonnay is another grape that can taste woody when the elevage wouldn't seem to justify it.
My objections in my OP were more to the style of the wine, but you have seized like a terrier onto the mention of oak.
Given that tasting is tricky, and that several comrades have all had similar recent experiences with the wine, is it possible that your 7 year old notes might not represent the current state of the wine?
A point to ponder, perhaps.
Tasting is tricky. We have all been fooled now and again.
Chardonnay is another grape that can taste woody when the elevage wouldn't seem to justify it.
My objections in my OP were more to the style of the wine, but you have seized like a terrier onto the mention of oak.
Given that tasting is tricky, and that several comrades have all had similar recent experiences with the wine, is it possible that your 7 year old notes might not represent the current state of the wine?
A point to ponder, perhaps.
U
Unknown
Guest
who is this mark e guy ? he sounds a bit like my favorite wine critic.
"I am 10% new oak on this!"
"I am 15% new oak on this!!"
"I am 10% new oak on this!"
"I am 15% new oak on this!!"
U
Unknown
Guest
originally posted by .sasha:
who is this mark e guy ? he sounds a bit like my favorite wine critic.
"I am 10% new oak on this!"
"I am 15% new oak on this!!"
there's too much vituperation on this bored.
i'm off to tossskhanay for some peace and quiet.
fb.
originally posted by .sasha:
who is this mark e guy ? he sounds a bit like my favorite wine critic.
"I am 10% new oak on this!"
"I am 15% new oak on this!!"
I'm 100 points on that.
Peter Creasey
Peter Creasey
[No message]
originally posted by fatboy:
originally posted by .sasha:
who is this mark e guy ? he sounds a bit like my favorite wine critic.
"I am 10% new oak on this!"
"I am 15% new oak on this!!"
there's too much vituperation on this bored.
i'm off to tossskhanay for some peace and quiet.
fb.
I wish I could join you - and enjoy some 11% unoaked trollinger together.
U
Unknown
Guest
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by fatboy:
originally posted by .sasha:
who is this mark e guy ? he sounds a bit like my favorite wine critic.
"I am 10% new oak on this!"
"I am 15% new oak on this!!"
there's too much vituperation on this bored.
i'm off to tossskhanay for some peace and quiet.
fb.
I wish I could join you - and enjoy some 11% unoaked trollinger together.
is that an annual compounded unoakiness rate?
U
Unknown
Guest
originally posted by BJ:
Definitely one of the weirder threads of late.
i miss those days.
fb.
U
Unknown
Guest
originally posted by mark e:
I wish I could join you - and enjoy some 11% unoaked trollinger together.
you are welcome in tossskhanay, any time.
fb.
originally posted by fatboy:
originally posted by BJ:
Definitely one of the weirder threads of late.
i miss those days.
fb.
You and me both, bro.
We're in the Brezhnev era.
U
Unknown
Guest
originally posted by BJ:
We're in the Brezhnev era.
we pretend there is no new oak??
originally posted by .sasha:
originally posted by BJ:
We're in the Brezhnev era.
we pretend there is no new oak??
No, we sign agreements limiting the proliferation of new oak. We'll call it GOUT (Gratuitous Oak Use Treaty).
Mark Lipton