Cabernet on Granite?

S

SFJoe

Joe Dougherty
I had occasion to taste a 1997 Cab from Renaissance last night, their "vin de terroir." Gideon Beinstock was winemaker then, as he began to branch out into his non-cult solo project Clos Saron. There was a texture to the tannins that was similar between the Renaissance and recent or older bottles of various things from that neighborhood from Clos Saron. It is quite distinctive. My recent Clos Saron wines have been syrah and pinot noir from granite sites, and I wonder whether the Renaissance vineyards have similar soils. I know they are nearby, and my understanding is that some kind of granite/diorite/gabbro is the underlying rock.

Anyhow, my second question is whether any other sites with Cabernet Sauvignon on granite come to mind, and whether they have similar textures. I couldn't think of any offhand (though one friend suggested Marc Ollivier's). Marc's vines are young, and the grapes are usually not extracted so much, there is less tannic structure to compare to warmer sites in Yuba County.

Leaving them aside, do others come to mind?
 
Ah, more info. The topsoil at Renaissance is "Dobbins Loam," which is red from its iron content and logically contains a fair bit of the decomposed bedrock from upslope.

Gabbro/diorite underneath.

Still curious about other cabernet sites.

Too bad Bregeon doesn't have some.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Are they able to be franc de pied because of the altitude?
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Not sure, Oswaldo. I think of the bugs as caring more about the soil type than the partial pressure of oxygen, but I am nobody's economic entomologist.

Part of it is isolation. There is really no one else up there (it isn't on Jeff's maps!). But jeeze, it would be a scary thing to hang around, just waiting for the first tourist or the first winemaker to come down the road with the louse in the mud in their wheel wells or what have you.
 
Yup, gotta quarantine those infested visitors. I understand that Chile and Argentina are louse-free because of the altitude, so perhaps that would apply here too. On the other hand, a quick check shows are that Montalcino and Priorat are slightly higher than Clos Saron's 1700ft, so it's probably not that.

BTW, this is a very interesting query, even though, as you've written (if I understood correctly), nobody has ever been able to prove a direct connection between soil type and flavors.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

BTW, this is a very interesting query, even though, as you've written (if I understood correctly), nobody has ever been able to prove a direct connection between soil type and flavors.
Click to expand...

Pshaw.

Have another glass of Vatan or de Moor or Baudry Clos Guillot and get back to me.
 
I'm involved in making a wine from Cabernet Franc (and a touch of Gamay), and at this point the dominant portion of the wine is grown in granite, though it's not own-rooted. My take, thus far, is that the reds I've worked with from granite have greater backbone, and really distinctive texture, more so than from the other sites I work with.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

BTW, this is a very interesting query, even though, as you've written (if I understood correctly), nobody has ever been able to prove a direct connection between soil type and flavors.
Click to expand...

Pshaw.

Have another glass of Vatan or de Moor or Baudry Clos Guillot and get back to me.
Click to expand...

Pshaw? This is your argument from a couple of years ago. So, you've changed your mind and haven't told anybody. Very nice, given that we look to you for a measure of scientific guidance.
 
Hmmmm.

I think you formulate the case in a way that I wouldn't.

I wouldn't say that the calcium ions pile their way into the wine. This formulation I reject. Mostly because it is easily disproven.

I would say that there is a "direct connection" between wines grown (in a reasonable way) on calcareous soil and the taste of the wines. Likewise for other soils.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
I understand that Chile and Argentina are louse-free because of the altitude
Click to expand...
Any references on why this should be so? Not obvious to me.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
I understand that Chile and Argentina are louse-free because of the altitude
Click to expand...
Any references on why this should be so? Not obvious to me.
Click to expand...

I'll keep an eye out, because quick googling proved fruitless. My supposition had been less oxygen content.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
Hmmmm.

I would say that there is a "direct connection" between wines grown (in a reasonable way) on calcareous soil and the taste of the wines. Likewise for other soils.
Click to expand...

I was having dinner with a friend in Charlottesville, VA two weeks ago and I found a wine deal at a country club that I couldn't refuse. So I ordered a bottle of 2010 Pur Sang and 2010 Silex from Benjamin Dagueneau for a side by side tasting.

The Pur Sang is from soil with clay and some chalky limestone. The Silex is from soil with clay and flint or Silex and at a higher elevation. I found that the flavor of the two wines are so distinctly different. Both wines were very pleasant but I prefer the flavor and aroma of the Silex.

This is my first time tasting Dagueneau wine made by Didier's son Benjamin. And I really like it.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
I understand that Chile and Argentina are louse-free because of the altitude
Click to expand...
Any references on why this should be so? Not obvious to me.
Click to expand...

I'll keep an eye out, because quick googling proved fruitless. My supposition had been less oxygen content.
Click to expand...

Higher altitudes tend to be cooler?
 
originally posted by Oliver McCrum:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
I understand that Chile and Argentina are louse-free because of the altitude
Click to expand...
Any references on why this should be so? Not obvious to me.
Click to expand...

I'll keep an eye out, because quick googling proved fruitless. My supposition had been less oxygen content.
Click to expand...

Higher altitudes tend to be cooler?
Click to expand...

No doubt, yet Mendoza is quite a bit higher than Colchagua, and presumably colder, and they have the bug, afaik. If cold were a big factor, perhaps the Mosel would be bug free. I've seen speculation that dryness is a factor, and there is a desert in Chile that protects at least one flank of the vineyard country. And that might dovetail with the aphid's well-known distaste for sandy soils. Hate how speculative this all is.
 
Thanks, Oswaldo.

Hydric stress, drainage, water retention in dry years, these are all pretty much universally agreed parts of terroir. Even people who don't believe in terroir accept them.

Something like lower nitrogen could certainly change the fermentation.

But I suspect there is something else about granite. Sandy soils, or gravelly soils, can be well-drained without giving the same texture.
 
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