Huet 2002 wiki

I think it's been said that the Moelleux haven't been affected by the problem, for the most part. Does anyone know a layman's version of the chemistry behind this?

Also, does anyone know if the Huet Moelleux survive thanks to sterile filtration or large doses of SO2?
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
I think it's been said that the Moelleux haven't been affected by the problem, for the most part. Does anyone know a layman's version of the chemistry behind this?

Also, does anyone know if the Huet Moelleux survive thanks to sterile filtration or large doses of SO2?
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This latter would be my guess. The low pH would also protect it against oxidation. Filtration I don't see as affecting it one way or another.

Mark Lipton
 
I mean sterile filtration, used to eliminate yeasts that might ferment the sugars later in bottle (not regular filtration, which, as you say, has no effect on that). None of these affect oxidation, afaik, that was a separate question.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
I mean sterile filtration, used to eliminate yeasts that might ferment the sugars later in bottle (not regular filtration, which, as you say, has no effect on that). None of these affect oxidation, afaik, that was a separate question.
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I don't think sterile filtration would have much effect on future oxidation. Turns out must hyperoxidiation does affect future browning and oxidation in a positive way. In the days in which I worked in production, it was not uncommon to use carbon dioxide blanketing, which it turned out left the wines quite susceptible to oxidation.
 
Alas, I put two entirely separate questions, and both Marks (I sound like a confidence man) have conflated them, so apologies for having been so unclear.

One: I was wondering what it was about the sweeties that made them less susceptible to premox, if that is indeed the case, as it seems to be, at least anecdotally.

Two: I was wondering how Huet prevents the sugar in the sweeties from refermenting. Do they use sterile filtration, or do they use sulfur? The former seems the preferred way for naturally inclined producers, but I don't know if it's the csse with Huet Moelleux.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Alas, I put two entirely separate questions, and both Marks (I sound like a confidence man) have conflated them, so apologies for having been so unclear.

One: I was wondering what it was about the sweeties that made them less susceptible to [CENSORED], if that is indeed the case, as it seems to be, at least anecdotally.

Two: I was wondering how Huet prevents the sugar in the sweeties from refermenting. Do they use sterile filtration, or do they use sulfur? The former seems the preferred way for naturally inclined producers, but I don't know if it's the csse with Huet Moelleux.
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Mark Lipton answered your first question - definitely high doses of SO2 - the older ones, without a doubt.

I don't know the answer to the second question. I visited Huet with SFJ, but I don't believe we talked about their winemaking.

When I worked briefly in Barsac in the 70s I was shocked by the SO2 levels, coming at the time from a pretty conventional winemaking background. In the case of both sweet white BX and Vouvray botrytis can be an important factor in deciding to use more sulfites.
 
originally posted by kirk wallace:
Didn't ML answer that, at least with his surmise (which is gotta be better than most)?
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If you're referring to the SO2 used to prevent sugar from refermenting, that was the answer to the other question (lol).

I don't think insufficient SO2 is a candidate for (afaik still unsettled) cause of pre mox, otherwise it would be easy to confirm by correlating with dosage, and the solution would be simple. And producers of white Burgundy from the mid-90s were not particularly noted for using low sulfur.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by kirk wallace:
Didn't ML answer that, at least with his surmise (which is gotta be better than most)?
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I don't think insufficient SO2 is a candidate for [a] cause of pre mox, .
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I do. It is one of many factors including how the must is treated vis-a-vis contact with air, and what the cellar practices might be plus the specific growing season and the pH; it is complicated, I fear. I'm not sure we can identify a single causal factor.
 
But then sans soufre ajouté wines would be particularly prone to the problem, and they don't seem to be. For example, the low sulfur muscadets from the late 90s and early 2000s which we report on frequently here seem practically immune (though it may be partly due to the (lower) pH, as you say).
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
But then sans soufre ajouté wines would be particularly prone to the problem, and they don't seem to be. For example, the low sulfur muscadets from the late 90s and early 2000s which we report on frequently here seem practically immune (though it may be partly due to the (lower) pH, as you say).
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Not necessarily. If the conditions for premature oxidation are complex -- say, no more than X of SO2, no more than Y of RS, no higher pH than Z, and two or three more -- then what you offered might not be proof of anything.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
But then sans soufre ajouté wines would be particularly prone to the problem, and they don't seem to be. For example, the low sulfur muscadets from the late 90s and early 2000s which we report on frequently here seem practically immune (though it may be partly due to the (lower) pH, as you say).
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I've never had a 10-year-old sans soufre wine so I can't speak from personal experience, but grape variety has a great deal to do with susceptibility to oxidation. Empirical evidence would point to Melon being less oxidation-prone than Chenin.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by kirk wallace:
Didn't ML answer that, at least with his surmise (which is gotta be better than most)?
Click to expand...

If you're referring to the SO2 used to prevent sugar from refermenting, that was the answer to the other question (lol).

I don't think insufficient SO2 is a candidate for (afaik still unsettled) cause of pre mox, otherwise it would be easy to confirm by correlating with dosage, and the solution would be simple. And producers of white Burgundy from the mid-90s were not particularly noted for using low sulfur.
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While sulphur is used, Huet moelleux do occasionally referment. I've had a number of such bottles, to my recollection always recent releases. (Don't taste bad!) Anecdotally shortly after release, i had a 500-ml bottle of 1995 Constance referment and shoot the cork clean through the top of the capsule, with enough force to make a perfectly round hole in the capsule.

On [CENSORED] what Jeff said. Over 15 years and countless hours talking and writing about [CENSORED], and it's still a chemical mystery with a lot of conjecture and little-to-no true insight or scientific knowledge. I very much doubt that a single "cause" will ever be identified -- that doesn't make sense chemically -- and I also doubt that sulphur forms and concentration are not a factor given a primary purpose of sulphur is to affect the redox chemistry in the bottle. Also my understanding is that a number of the mid-90s white Burg producers most susceptible to [CENSORED] did change their typical sulphur regimens at the time.

I don't think we know for certain what effect residual sugar concentration has on [CENSORED]. There is insufficient data. For 2002 Huets, given the time since bottling relative to the known aging potential, I personally think it's too soon to tell. All we can say is the Huet moelleux seem less affected even though the demisec with notable amounts of RS were clearly affected.

I also saw in another thread that there is a misconception about [CENSORED] and white Bordeaux. It's pretty clear now that white Bordeaux has been affected by [CENSORED].
 
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:

While sulphur is used, Huet moelleux do occasionally referment. I've had a number of such bottles, to my recollection always recent releases. (Don't taste bad!) Anecdotally shortly after release, i had a 500-ml bottle of 1995 Constance referment and shoot the cork clean through the top of the capsule, with enough force to make a perfectly round hole in the capsule.
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I've never experienced this with new release bottles. I did see a cork protruding out of a new release '97 Cuvee Constance, but this was at Crossroads and the culprit was heat. However, a number of the reconditioned older bottlings that were released after the sale of the domaine were unfortunately affected by refermenting problems. I personally experienced it in a '24, '47, '49 (twice), '53 and '59. I know Dougherty spoke of this problem as well.
 
I had the Domaine Huët Clos du Bourg Vouvray '09 tonight.

What a lovely and versatile wine, totally in its good form! It went really nicely with a bunch of fried oysters on a Caesar salad.

This venue has one more bottle which I plan to try to scarf up soon...although the Sommelier advises me I better hurry or else she will have already prescarfed me.

. . . . . Pete
 
originally posted by Peter Creasey:

I had the Domaine Huët Clos du Bourg Vouvray '09 tonight.

What a lovely and versatile wine, totally in its good form! It went really nicely with a bunch of fried oysters on a Caesar salad.

This venue has one more bottle which I plan to try to scarf up soon...although the Sommelier advises me I better hurry or else she will have already prescarfed me.

. . . . . Pete
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Sec? Demi-sec?
 
maureen, good poser!

I've only had the wine a few times over a fairly long time interval.

The wine list indicated sec. I think I would have noticed if the label indicated demi-sec. I don't recall anything that would make me think demi-sec with respect to this wine nor do I think the demi-sec bottling would have paired as well with the dish as this one did.

Surely sec!

. . . . . Pete
 
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