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Petite Sirah, what is it good for?
- Thread starter SFJoe
- Start date
originally posted by SFJoe:
You guys are freaking me out.
Amen.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
I'm with you, though I don't know that I've ever had Baga.originally posted by MLipton:
Yeah, to me Tannat scratches whatever itch PS would likely reach.
But I don't think there's much good Madiran in the marketplace now.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
I'm with you, though I don't know that I've ever had Baga.originally posted by MLipton:
Yeah, to me Tannat scratches whatever itch PS would likely reach.
But I don't think there's much good Madiran in the marketplace now.
Weren't you at Levi's ungrafted tasting? The Luis Pato Quinta do Ribeirinho is Bagalicious.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
Yes. I didn't have them written down as Baga. OK, then I have tasted it. My notes say I liked the '96 better than the '95 that night. How are the recent vintages?originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
I'm with you, though I don't know that I've ever had Baga.originally posted by MLipton:
Yeah, to me Tannat scratches whatever itch PS would likely reach.
But I don't think there's much good Madiran in the marketplace now.
Weren't you at Levi's ungrafted tasting? The Luis Pato Quinta do Ribeirinho is Bagalicious.
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
But I don't think there's much good Madiran in the marketplace now.
Thank His Noodleness for Irouleguy, not that I see too much of that, either.
Mark Lipton
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Yes. I didn't have them written down as Baga. OK, then I have tasted it. My notes say I liked the '96 better than the '95 that night. How are the recent vintages?originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
I'm with you, though I don't know that I've ever had Baga.originally posted by MLipton:
Yeah, to me Tannat scratches whatever itch PS would likely reach.
But I don't think there's much good Madiran in the marketplace now.
Weren't you at Levi's ungrafted tasting? The Luis Pato Quinta do Ribeirinho is Bagalicious.
They are hard to taste before at least ten years have softened the tannins, so I can only say that the 2009 barrel sample tasted in Portugal about four years ago was very promising.
Zachary Ross
Zachary Ross
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
I'm with you, though I don't know that I've ever had Baga.originally posted by MLipton:
Yeah, to me Tannat scratches whatever itch PS would likely reach.
But I don't think there's much good Madiran in the marketplace now.
There really isn't. Chateau d'Aydie is an excellent current producer but there's so little of it available in the U.S.
Zachary Ross
Zachary Ross
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
But I don't think there's much good Madiran in the marketplace now.
Thank His Noodleness for Irouleguy, not that I see too much of that, either.
Mark Lipton
It's around. Btw, Crush carries Ilarria's sans soufre Irouleguy and it's Freakin' Fantastic (FF).
Jay Miller
Jay Miller
Any Aglianico recommendations?
originally posted by Jay Miller:
Any Aglianico recommendations?
Giardino makes a pleasant version, but it doesn't get local distribution out here and somehow I have never been motivated enough to pay to have it shipped. Anyone have experience with Madonna delle Grazie?
On the domestic front, Caparone makes one that is food-friendly and easy on the wallet. I have been hearing good things about Giornata's version(s) but have yet to pull the trigger.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
I'm still slowly working my way through the recommendations from Levi and from AoE. My notes show a mish-mash, I'm afraid. The one that seems to rise above the rest is the Lonardo Contrade di Taurasi, which Levi served at the Pie Franco dinner.originally posted by Jay Miller:
Any Aglianico recommendations?
I have also had some wonderful d'Angelo and some crappy d'Angelo. Y and M MMV.
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
I'm still slowly working my way through the recommendations from Levi and from AoE. My notes show a mish-mash, I'm afraid. The one that seems to rise above the rest is the Lonardo Contrade di Taurasi, which Levi served at the Pie Franco dinner.originally posted by Jay Miller:
Any Aglianico recommendations?
I have also had some wonderful d'Angelo and some crappy d'Angelo. Y and M MMV.
Nature of the beast, I'm afraid. It is very difficult to know which ones will show volcanic and taut and which some across as a Napa-nized cabernet. But its worth trying, imo. If you can find old Struzziero, go for it (and let ME know how many bottles you didn't take).
Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
According to Navarro's website, there is still a little Petite Sirah in the generic red, and cellartracker shows it as being bottled separately by Navarro at least up to 2006.
I haven't encountered any Petite Sirah recently because I don't follow CA wines closely, any more, and also because it's become a rare grape, I think. Once it was established that the grape was Durif and not Syrah, I think most people lost interest and either ripped the vines out or grafted them over, and those that were left were probably used, for the most part, for blending.
The Petite Sirahs in the 1970s and first part of the 1980s were, indeed, boring and brutally tannic -- when they were young. But with 10-15 years of age on them, there could be some magical transformations. I've had some great ones from Ridge (most of which did show well young), and a I recall a stunning 1974 Mount Veeder Vineyards that I must have had in the late 1980s. In the late 1970s and early 1980s, Santa Cruz Mountain Vineyards had some really attractive bottlings that you didn't have to wait for labelled as Durif (checking wine-searcher, I see they still make it).
I haven't encountered any Petite Sirah recently because I don't follow CA wines closely, any more, and also because it's become a rare grape, I think. Once it was established that the grape was Durif and not Syrah, I think most people lost interest and either ripped the vines out or grafted them over, and those that were left were probably used, for the most part, for blending.
The Petite Sirahs in the 1970s and first part of the 1980s were, indeed, boring and brutally tannic -- when they were young. But with 10-15 years of age on them, there could be some magical transformations. I've had some great ones from Ridge (most of which did show well young), and a I recall a stunning 1974 Mount Veeder Vineyards that I must have had in the late 1980s. In the late 1970s and early 1980s, Santa Cruz Mountain Vineyards had some really attractive bottlings that you didn't have to wait for labelled as Durif (checking wine-searcher, I see they still make it).
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
I haven't encountered any Petite Sirah recently because I don't follow CA wines closely, any more, and also because it's become a rare grape, I think. Once it was established that the grape was Durif and not Syrah, I think most people lost interest and either ripped the vines out or grafted them over, and those that were left were probably used, for the most part, for blending.
Makes sense.
But Jancis dixit that CA plantings went from 2282 acres in 1999 to 6584 acres in 2008, so go figure.
Keith Levenberg
Keith Levenberg
Mustilli Cesco di Neceoriginally posted by Jay Miller:
Any Aglianico recommendations?
Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
I haven't encountered any Petite Sirah recently because I don't follow CA wines closely, any more, and also because it's become a rare grape, I think. Once it was established that the grape was Durif and not Syrah, I think most people lost interest and either ripped the vines out or grafted them over, and those that were left were probably used, for the most part, for blending.
Makes sense.
But Jancis dixit that CA plantings went from 2282 acres in 1999 to 6584 acres in 2008, so go figure.
I would guess that's because it's on the rebound from an extreme low. From Matt Kramer's Making Sense of California Wine (1992), p. 240: (apparently he's talking only about Central Coast, or perhaps only Monterey County): 1971 -- 332 acres of PS; 1980 -- 2200 acres of PS; 1981 -- 780 acres (that was roughly about the time that it was becoming widely suspected that PS was Durif, IIRC); 1990 -- 780 acres.
Anyone who wants to take the time can go through the annual vintage reports to determine how much Petite Sirah was crushed each year in CA since 1976: http://www.nass.usda.gov/Statistics_by_State/California/Publications/Grape_Crush/Reports/index.asp
originally posted by Jay Miller:
Any Aglianico recommendations?
What about Molettieri? I have heard great things in the past.
Christian Miller (CMM)
Christian Miller
Well-made Petite Sirah is one of the best "kid's birth year" wines, because it is practically immortal and California rarely has a genuinely bad vintage in the ageability sense. Yes, there are plenty of California wines that won't age well, but that's usually due to vinification and perhaps harvesting choices, assuming it's a variety that ages well in the first place.
PS may not develop as much complexity or reach the heights of Barolo or ageable Napa Cab or Bordeaux, but it ages reliably, for a reasonable price. In this sense, it reminds me of Madiran. For a birth year wine, survival is more important than sheer quality.
That said, I think Ridge's York Creek PS are among the best terroir-driven wines of California. Echoing Claude, many of those monolithic 70s Petite Sirahs aged and improved for years. In fact the 1975 Ridge and Freemark Abbey York Creek Pets were superb at a tasting just a few years ago and in no danger of going over the hill.
On the blending side, many winemakers prize the structure, color and hint of blackberries and pepper that a bit of PS can add to a wine. I would add that to my taste, the blend of 80-90% Zin/10-20% PS is a classic.
Personally I find PS more interesting by far than Petit Verdot, which seems to be staking a claim to the PS blending role in Napa these days.
My one concern has been recent attempts to tame PS tannins and make it more "accessible"; reasonable goals but they sometimes result in blobbified wines that taste like a zillion other modern blob-wines.
There has indeed been growth in acreage planted in California, both for blending purposes and bottling as a varietal. PS growers have had the good fortune of not going though the boom/bust cycle familiar to Merlot and Syrah growers. It's never been popular enough to become a "hot" varietal in demand by big box companies, and its high value as a blender provided a safety net for grape prices.
PS may not develop as much complexity or reach the heights of Barolo or ageable Napa Cab or Bordeaux, but it ages reliably, for a reasonable price. In this sense, it reminds me of Madiran. For a birth year wine, survival is more important than sheer quality.
That said, I think Ridge's York Creek PS are among the best terroir-driven wines of California. Echoing Claude, many of those monolithic 70s Petite Sirahs aged and improved for years. In fact the 1975 Ridge and Freemark Abbey York Creek Pets were superb at a tasting just a few years ago and in no danger of going over the hill.
On the blending side, many winemakers prize the structure, color and hint of blackberries and pepper that a bit of PS can add to a wine. I would add that to my taste, the blend of 80-90% Zin/10-20% PS is a classic.
Personally I find PS more interesting by far than Petit Verdot, which seems to be staking a claim to the PS blending role in Napa these days.
My one concern has been recent attempts to tame PS tannins and make it more "accessible"; reasonable goals but they sometimes result in blobbified wines that taste like a zillion other modern blob-wines.
There has indeed been growth in acreage planted in California, both for blending purposes and bottling as a varietal. PS growers have had the good fortune of not going though the boom/bust cycle familiar to Merlot and Syrah growers. It's never been popular enough to become a "hot" varietal in demand by big box companies, and its high value as a blender provided a safety net for grape prices.