Chateauneuf-du-Pape 00-11 at the TGJP

P

pab

pierre-alain benoit
Hello,
Last friday, Le Bon Tyran was back in Paris. We made a very nice dinner with 7 Chateauneuf-du-Pape 00-11 (Charvin, Ferrand, Banneret, Biscarelle, Mas Saint-Louis) and 2 whites Languedoc (Rectorie & Hortus). See
www.tgjp.com and click on the Cole's picture.
Ask any questions on the forum and I will try to answer.
Best regards
pierre-alain benoit
 
Dinner was very nice but the careful reader will note a "cdnp cull party" subtheme. One receives mailers touting certain "rising" producers who evidently still have more room to rise.
 
In another mode, I have heard complaints about recent vintage Charvin not being made in the old mode.

Anyone know more than I do?
 
I import Charvin now, and we are working on the 300% new oak cuvée. It's tough getting high toast American oak barrels in the region.
 
originally posted by Yixin:
I import Charvin now, and we are working on the 300% new oak cuvée. It's tough getting high toast American oak barrels in the region.
Click to expand...
So it's your fault!
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
In another mode, I have heard complaints about recent vintage Charvin not being made in the old mode.

Anyone know more than I do?
Click to expand...

I visit a couple of times a year. No obvious changes that I see or Charvin talks about. No super cuvees, no wood, no megapurple. Of course, I'd be easy to fool.
 
Vintage after vintage, Charvin is better.
First the "mode" who mix intensiv and precise work in the vineyard (organic), no destemmed and cement vat is a very good one for grenache (an ufo in Chateauneuf). Taste a 1998, 2001 or 2005. Benchmark with Marcoux, Clos des Papes, Beaucastel, Vieux Donjon or Rayas ! freshness, elegant, purity... The "1990 bet", when Laurent came back from Beaune wine school, become the "chief" and introduce the bootle (before wine was sold in "vrac") is a total success.
Second, Laurent Charvin is still very involved in all the process (no travel, two "salon" by year, no vacation...). The estate is still running like a family estate (no fund, bank or investor). Laurent Charvin is always all day in the vineyard.
Third, money is reinvested in the estate for having more people in vineyard and a very efficient chai.
Sorry for my poor english.
 
I'm surprised you guys drink CdP, seems so outside your range and against your tasting parameters, but perhaps you are working your way through the appelations?
 
originally posted by MarkS:
I'm surprised you guys drink CdP, seems so outside your range and against your tasting parameters, but perhaps you are working your way through the appelations?
Click to expand...

You must not be a regular reader. Pab is as much a CdP afficionado as I am. Cole was more along for the ride I'm guessing, though he has a fair collection of old ones himself.
 
originally posted by pab:
Vintage after vintage, Charvin is better.
First the "mode" who mix intensiv and precise work in the vineyard (organic), no destemmed and cement vat is a very good one for grenache (an ufo in Chateauneuf). Taste a 1998, 2001 or 2005. Benchmark with Marcoux, Clos des Papes, Beaucastel, Vieux Donjon or Rayas ! freshness, elegant, purity... The "1990 bet", when Laurent came back from Beaune wine school, become the "chief" and introduce the bootle (before wine was sold in "vrac") is a total success.
Second, Laurent Charvin is still very involved in all the process (no travel, two "salon" by year, no vacation...). The estate is still running like a family estate (no fund, bank or investor). Laurent Charvin is always all day in the vineyard.
Third, money is reinvested in the estate for having more people in vineyard and a very efficient chai.
Sorry for my poor english.
Click to expand...

Your preference for the ripest vintages does not totally reassure me.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
originally posted by MarkS:
I'm surprised you guys drink CdP, seems so outside your range and against your tasting parameters, but perhaps you are working your way through the appelations?
Click to expand...

You must not be a regular reader. Pab is as much a CdP afficionado as I am. Cole was more along for the ride I'm guessing, though he has a fair collection of old ones himself.
Click to expand...

Well, the French deters me a bit, but I always got the sense this group liked lower alcohol wines that did not show as "big" and ripe (not that Chateauneuf is always this way, but can easily become so). Perhaps I misread or misjudged the notes?
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
Your preference for the ripest vintages does not totally reassure me.
Click to expand...

Did you read so ? Where ?

A good chateauneuf is not an alcohol wine but 95% of the production is based on alcohol.
The signature of the appellation must be "power" but also "balanced". Chateauneuf need acidity and acidity is the fruit of the labor in the vineyard (expensive) not of "acidification" (in the cellar - a low-cost way).
 
Forgive me if I misinterpret you, but you speak only of those:

originally posted by pab:
Taste a 1998, 2001 or 2005. Benchmark with Marcoux, Clos des Papes, Beaucastel, Vieux Donjon or Rayas !
Click to expand...
 
Well, 01 and 05 were accepted by the great guru as great vintages, but they were more structured and less ripe than say 03, 07, or for that matter, 98 and 00. If you taste Charvin in 01 and 05 I don't think you'll find the wines heavy. And, regardless of what you think of the 98s generally, he did extremely well that year. So Pab's choices weren't out of line (except that I like Marcoux in those years and VD and Clos des Papes in 98 and 01--before they went over to the dark side).

More to the point, the question was whether Charvin had changed. Since 1990, there certainly have been changes. I think the first CdR he released was in like 1996. The rosé and the vdp are also I think new in this millennium or thereabouts. He started making a white in 11 in small quantities. He stopped using any wood in the early 00s (he was really using only cuves before that but he had some demi-muids he used for storing the CdRs until the early 00s). He has some new gadgets that give him more information during vinification, etc., etc. But there really hasn't been a change in house style.

While Charvin isn't a Cambie trying to ripen grapes until all tannins are as soft as jelly, and, in fact, looks for structure in the wines,in ripe years, his wine does get ripe. But this still isn't a change.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
Forgive me if I misinterpret you, but you speak only of those:

originally posted by pab:
Taste a 1998, 2001 or 2005. Benchmark with Marcoux, Clos des Papes, Beaucastel, Vieux Donjon or Rayas !
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

You misinterpret because you "overinterpret" the voice of Parker. Try a Charvin 98 or 01 or 05 and you will discover a balanced and complex wine with a very nice evolution. Not a blockbuster.
Next time you come to Paris and with the clearance of Le Bon Tyran (of course), come to the TGJP and we will try to prove the "grandeur" of Charvin.
 
originally posted by pab:
originally posted by SFJoe:
Forgive me if I misinterpret you, but you speak only of those:

originally posted by pab:
Taste a 1998, 2001 or 2005. Benchmark with Marcoux, Clos des Papes, Beaucastel, Vieux Donjon or Rayas !
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

You misinterpret because you "overinterpret" the voice of Parker. Try a Charvin 98 or 01 or 05 and you will discover a balanced and complex wine with a very nice evolution. Not a blockbuster.
Next time you come to Paris and with the clearance of Le Bon Tyran (of course), come to the TGJP and we will try to prove the "grandeur" of Charvin.
Click to expand...

In truth, I haven't heard the voice of Parker in more than a decade. I have no idea what the guy likes or doesn't, unless it gets very notorious like Pavie.

I just bought 6 bottles of '06 Charvin a few weeks ago--an honest reflection of my motives.

I would be honored to eat the fabulous food that you guys display on the website--I don't exclaim over it every time, but it always looks amazing.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by pab:
originally posted by SFJoe:
Forgive me if I misinterpret you, but you speak only of those:

originally posted by pab:
Taste a 1998, 2001 or 2005. Benchmark with Marcoux, Clos des Papes, Beaucastel, Vieux Donjon or Rayas !
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

You misinterpret because you "overinterpret" the voice of Parker. Try a Charvin 98 or 01 or 05 and you will discover a balanced and complex wine with a very nice evolution. Not a blockbuster.
Next time you come to Paris and with the clearance of Le Bon Tyran (of course), come to the TGJP and we will try to prove the "grandeur" of Charvin.
Click to expand...

In truth, I haven't heard the voice of Parker in more than a decade. I have no idea what the guy likes or doesn't, unless it gets very notorious like Pavie.

I just bought 6 bottles of '06 Charvin a few weeks ago--an honest reflection of my motives.

I would be honored to eat the fabulous food that you guys display on the website--I don't exclaim over it every time, but it always looks amazing.
Click to expand...

You'd probably find the 04 more to your taste. Give it a little air, though, and it will start to show its earthy side.
 
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