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Non spoofed 05 Bourgogne
- Thread starter BJ
- Start date
Arjun Mendiratta
Arjun Mendiratta
Love this wine, pretty sure mine are all gone though.
I ordered some of the '11 from Shawn.
Went through lots of the 2002 and 2005. Love the wines.
There was a thread back on the old wine therapy site where someone was actually making fun of a situation when Marechal used reverse osmosis or some other cellar intervention one vintage. I think it was a one time deal, but don't really know for certain.
The non spoofed part was not always the case I guess.
Went through lots of the 2002 and 2005. Love the wines.
There was a thread back on the old wine therapy site where someone was actually making fun of a situation when Marechal used reverse osmosis or some other cellar intervention one vintage. I think it was a one time deal, but don't really know for certain.
The non spoofed part was not always the case I guess.
Jim Hanlon
Jim Hanlon
originally posted by MarkS:
Bourgogne is not usually a spoofed wine.
Have you had many that were??
There's more to spoofing than extremely low yields and new oak. I'd expect the heavy majority of Bourgogne usually to be chaptalized and inoculated, for instance.
Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
originally posted by Jim Hanlon:
originally posted by MarkS:
Bourgogne is not usually a spoofed wine.
Have you had many that were??
There's more to spoofing than extremely low yields and new oak. I'd expect the heavy majority of Bourgogne usually to be chaptalized and inoculated, for instance.
You consider any chaptalization to be spoofing?
U
Unknown
Guest
originally posted by Jim Hanlon:
originally posted by MarkS:
Bourgogne is not usually a spoofed wine.
Have you had many that were??
There's more to spoofing than extremely low yields and new oak. I'd expect the heavy majority of Bourgogne usually to be chaptalized and inoculated, for instance.
and yet I've been seeing (or at least tasting) evidence of the opposite, with chaptalization starting with village in cellars
Jay Miller
Jay Miller
originally posted by Marc D:
I ordered some of the '11 from Shawn.
Went through lots of the 2002 and 2005. Love the wines.
There was a thread back on the old wine therapy site where someone was actually making fun of a situation when Marechal used reverse osmosis or some other cellar intervention one vintage. I think it was a one time deal, but don't really know for certain.
The non spoofed part was not always the case I guess.
That was the 2000 vintage. I'm pretty sure it was a one time thing though it was done very deftly in 2000. At least I liked the wines. Joe Dressner hated us bringing it up though.
Todd Abrams
Todd Abrams
Don't want to let those gray areas get in the way of a good narrative.
Jim Hanlon
Jim Hanlon
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
originally posted by Jim Hanlon:
originally posted by MarkS:
Bourgogne is not usually a spoofed wine.
Have you had many that were??
There's more to spoofing than extremely low yields and new oak. I'd expect the heavy majority of Bourgogne usually to be chaptalized and inoculated, for instance.
You consider any chaptalization to be spoofing?
Some would. I'm not so dogmatic as to have a firm opinion. I was just pointing out that the lower appellation wines see plenty of manipulation as well as the fancier ones.
Howard Davis
Howard Davis
Interesting thread.
For myself, I don't see chapitalisation as spoofing. Coming from the New World it seems a bit weird. But great wines are often made in areas on the tipping point, with marginal weather conditions, like Burgundy, where sometimes the makers need to chapitalise.
I see other winemaking techniques as spoofing: overoaking, obviously, acid adjustment and Michel Rolland-style micro-oxygenation etc.
To me the best winemakers, like JM Forrier, see themselves not as 'winemakers' using 'techniques' or 'treatments', but as non-interventionist custodians of their grapes and terroirs, trying to do as little as possible to upset the natural character.
For myself, I don't see chapitalisation as spoofing. Coming from the New World it seems a bit weird. But great wines are often made in areas on the tipping point, with marginal weather conditions, like Burgundy, where sometimes the makers need to chapitalise.
I see other winemaking techniques as spoofing: overoaking, obviously, acid adjustment and Michel Rolland-style micro-oxygenation etc.
To me the best winemakers, like JM Forrier, see themselves not as 'winemakers' using 'techniques' or 'treatments', but as non-interventionist custodians of their grapes and terroirs, trying to do as little as possible to upset the natural character.
U
Unknown
Guest
Did you say interesting thread? We can't have that. Let me do my best to screw it up for you.
Spoof or not, I do believe chaptalization is a major problem with Burgundy.
But it's all about what's in your glass. Your glass, not mine.
There was a time when I adored all sorts of spoofy champagne with crazy dosage, and I still like some of them, when they get old enough. But having navigated my way through a maze of grower champagne, most with little or no dosage, I've encountered enough successful examples to have essentially retrained my palate.
This is not meant to be a direct parallel, since sugar ferments in the reds, but having come across very good non-chaptalized pinot, some from Burgundy and a bunch from elsewhere, my vinum burg stem seems a little heavier than it used to.
Spoof or not, I do believe chaptalization is a major problem with Burgundy.
But it's all about what's in your glass. Your glass, not mine.
There was a time when I adored all sorts of spoofy champagne with crazy dosage, and I still like some of them, when they get old enough. But having navigated my way through a maze of grower champagne, most with little or no dosage, I've encountered enough successful examples to have essentially retrained my palate.
This is not meant to be a direct parallel, since sugar ferments in the reds, but having come across very good non-chaptalized pinot, some from Burgundy and a bunch from elsewhere, my vinum burg stem seems a little heavier than it used to.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
Yay.
Filippo Mattia Ginanni
Filippo Mattia Ginanni
It will be very interesting to follow how all those zero dosage (often single vineyard) champagne will be evolving... If it is all about the dosage that make them ageworthy/ageable... Same could be said in reverse for GG...
It is very difficult in my mind to equate chaptalisation to spoofulation but I get it must be seen in context: if you can't make it to a decent (or legal) abv you must chaptalize but if you are good with your wine in terms of abv, chaptalisation may be considered differently...
It would be interesting to know, sasha, which Domaines in Burgundy you think they spoofulate by chaptalizing either by my tentative definition above or using yours whatever that is.
It is very difficult in my mind to equate chaptalisation to spoofulation but I get it must be seen in context: if you can't make it to a decent (or legal) abv you must chaptalize but if you are good with your wine in terms of abv, chaptalisation may be considered differently...
It would be interesting to know, sasha, which Domaines in Burgundy you think they spoofulate by chaptalizing either by my tentative definition above or using yours whatever that is.
Filippo Mattia Ginanni
Filippo Mattia Ginanni
originally posted by MarkS:
If grapes need sugar, perhaps the grapes shouldn't be grown there.
True indeed. Maybe the Champenoises got it right: many MV wines with the occasional vintage bottling.
U
Unknown
Guest
originally posted by Filippo Mattia Ginanni:
It is very difficult in my mind to equate chaptalisation to spoofulation but I get it must be seen in context: if you can't make it to a decent (or legal) abv you must chaptalize but if you are good with your wine in terms of abv, chaptalisation may be considered differently...
i think this pretty much nails it for me: chaptalizing a bit to save a vintage where ripeness is an issue is one thing, but reaching for teh sugar bag to extract color / plush things up in better years is quite another.
fb.