agreed. it is - when used very judiciously - the least of the spoofing evils. If potential abv went from 10.8 to 11.5 in a shitty year you'd probably be making a better wine, but again it depends on how much and how often. Raising Burgundy 2 points from 12.5 (yup, it is done) is absurd.
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Non spoofed 05 Bourgogne
- Thread starter BJ
- Start date
agreed. it is - when used very judiciously - the least of the spoofing evils. If potential abv went from 10.8 to 11.5 in a shitty year you'd probably be making a better wine, but again it depends on how much and how often. Raising Burgundy 2 points from 12.5 (yup, it is done) is absurd.
This reminds me very much of the back-and-forth regarding the use of sulfur. In the end, I am less interested in absolutism than in drinking wine made by a person whose goal is to let the grape, the place and the year speak through his or her wine and who responds to conditions to achieve that goal.
Mark Lipton
Mark Lipton
This is possibly taboo to mention in this forum, especially coming from a newer participant, but there's also the ugly truth of financial viability underlying this discussion. While I'd always prefer to think of the winemaker's decisions to be wholly dedicated to expression, bulking an entire vintage may not be a viable alternative for some. I personally would prefer full transparency on these matters, but that's far from the norm.
In general, I agree with the concept of "judicious" usage being acceptable. Some great wines are made in regions that are marginally acceptable for grape growing, so it's possible that light intervention is necessary to connect the dots between the great vintages.
In general, I agree with the concept of "judicious" usage being acceptable. Some great wines are made in regions that are marginally acceptable for grape growing, so it's possible that light intervention is necessary to connect the dots between the great vintages.
Claude Kolm
Claude Kolm
I get the feeling that many people above think that the only reason to chaptalize is to increase alcohol levels. That is incorrect.
U
Unknown
Guest
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
I get the feeling that many people above think that the only reason to chaptalize is to increase alcohol levels. That is incorrect.
quite right. sometimes one's feelings just get in teh way.
fb.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
Since we're on this topic, perhaps those in the know can be so kind as to abuse or disabuse me of this notion: whenever I open an older Burg and it seems too dark, the suspicion of chaptalization rears its mane. Not so much, as Claude points out, to increase abv but, as the .ster has suggested, to prolong fermentation to generate more complexity or oomph or whatever. The grounds for this suspicion would be that a higher alcohol level and a longer fermentation would extract more color from the skins that a lower alcohol level and a shorter fermentation, other things equal. Seems logical, but is true?
originally posted by mlawton:
An 05 Truchot-Martin Bourgogne was really excellent last week.
As was the Vietnamese quail dish we had with it.
Filippo Mattia Ginanni
Filippo Mattia Ginanni
Without getting too technical, indeed chaptalisation leads to more than higher abv. A couple of things come to mind:
- the synthesis of higher alcohols (fusel oils) is speedier. As you know those alcohols give certain herbaceousenss in some wines, others have pungent odours. They can donate complexity but they are diffuclt to control and can wipe out a delicate bouquet such as Pinot’s. However there are other practices such as sulphuring, a medium to low temperature for the alcoholic fermentation that slow down the production of fusel oils. Hence the overall effect is not so clear cut
- the increase of some esters and the decrease of others like isomyl acetate aka banana/pear drop
I am not sure if there are any more and I am still less sure that any of the above would be a by product so desired by a winemaker in the vinification process in Burgundy. I will ask when I am there in three weeks time.
- the synthesis of higher alcohols (fusel oils) is speedier. As you know those alcohols give certain herbaceousenss in some wines, others have pungent odours. They can donate complexity but they are diffuclt to control and can wipe out a delicate bouquet such as Pinot’s. However there are other practices such as sulphuring, a medium to low temperature for the alcoholic fermentation that slow down the production of fusel oils. Hence the overall effect is not so clear cut
- the increase of some esters and the decrease of others like isomyl acetate aka banana/pear drop
I am not sure if there are any more and I am still less sure that any of the above would be a by product so desired by a winemaker in the vinification process in Burgundy. I will ask when I am there in three weeks time.
U
Unknown
Guest
originally posted by mark e:
agreed. it is - when used very judiciously - the least of the spoofing evils.
dude, i am occasionally tempted to think that oak (of which i am no fan) is a lesser spoofing evil in burgundy, other things being equal, i.e. when "judiciously used"
e.g. last night '96 geantet-pansiot poissenot when compared to itself on release, which was the last and only other time i had it, showed surprising integration - the material point being that the original concept of the wine was recovered, whereas you can't recover the original wine after chaptalization by definition, it does not exist
Lou Kessler
Lou Kessler
I see, now it's the degree of spoofing that counts.originally posted by fatboy:
originally posted by Filippo Mattia Ginanni:
It is very difficult in my mind to equate chaptalisation to spoofulation but I get it must be seen in context: if you can't make it to a decent (or legal) abv you must chaptalize but if you are good with your wine in terms of abv, chaptalisation may be considered differently...
i think this pretty much nails it for me: chaptalizing a bit to save a vintage where ripeness is an issue is one thing, but reaching for teh sugar bag to extract color / plush things up in better years is quite another.
fb.
U
Unknown
Guest
originally posted by Lou Kessler:
I see, now it's the degree of spoofing that counts.
yes. no.
and it depends. as ever. expediency and necessity are teh perennial demons on teh shoulder.
which is why teh devil is always in the details. wine boredz hate that shit.
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Lou Kessler
Lou Kessler
I need a clear definition so I can remain pure.originally posted by fatboy:
originally posted by Lou Kessler:
I see, now it's the degree of spoofing that counts.
yes. no.
and it depends. as ever.
the devil is always in the details. wine boredz hate that shit.
fb.
U
Unknown
Guest
see above. it's a dirty world.
definitions are like teh points. and just as useful. once upon a time, some of us had a hope that one might gather a bunch of like-minded fools who believed same, and that a vague sense of patricianism, bile and monkey business might be enough to forge a space where folks might discuss this shit without same.
ah, but.
how many folk singers does it take to change a light bulb?
how many points did you give teh new fevre releases?
fb.
definitions are like teh points. and just as useful. once upon a time, some of us had a hope that one might gather a bunch of like-minded fools who believed same, and that a vague sense of patricianism, bile and monkey business might be enough to forge a space where folks might discuss this shit without same.
ah, but.
how many folk singers does it take to change a light bulb?
how many points did you give teh new fevre releases?
fb.
Lou Kessler
Lou Kessler
I love the sincere transparency in your prompt reply.
U
Unknown
Guest
there is nothing more spontaneous than on-line composition. i do and haz done it always.
tell me, if this bored really is to be absorbed by wine bejerkerz, will that shit will be outlawed?
fb.
tell me, if this bored really is to be absorbed by wine bejerkerz, will that shit will be outlawed?
fb.
Lou Kessler
Lou Kessler
YES, Ignorance is strength. 1984 passed me by and nothing happened again.originally posted by fatboy:
there is nothing more spontaneous than on-line composition. i do and haz done it always.
tell me, if this bored really is to be absorbed by wine bejerkerz, will that shit will be outlawed?
fb.
U
Unknown
Guest
originally posted by fatboy:
tell me, if this bored really is to be absorbed by wine bejerkerz
fb.
yeah, the price we pay for hiring them as a security force to provide safe cab rides home, with your fav wines
To Serve Disorderites
Filippo Mattia Ginanni
Filippo Mattia Ginanni
originally posted by Lou Kessler:
Ah HahI see, now it's the degree of spoofing that counts.originally posted by fatboy:
originally posted by Filippo Mattia Ginanni:
It is very difficult in my mind to equate chaptalisation to spoofulation but I get it must be seen in context: if you can't make it to a decent (or legal) abv you must chaptalize but if you are good with your wine in terms of abv, chaptalisation may be considered differently...
i think this pretty much nails it for me: chaptalizing a bit to save a vintage where ripeness is an issue is one thing, but reaching for teh sugar bag to extract color / plush things up in better years is quite another.
fb.
Lou,
it sounds you are massively against any kind of chaptalisation (even when needed to rescue a wine that would legally not make the cut) hence I would be keen to understand if in Burgundy you purchase only from Domaines which certify to you that don't chaptalize or absent that just in years which are riper like 2009 or 2011 (and you hope that the Domaine does not have any under ripe fruit in any vineyard).