Loire Cab Franc-Based Wines

Who is the first winemaker/consultant/journalist/importer to come up with the seasoning analogy for oak in wine? I've heard it from too many winemakers to count, from all over the world, and always from ones where the oak is very noticeable.
 
I'm truly curious, if you don't like even a hint of oak in your wine do you want your wines raised in stainless or concrete exclusively? Or are you saying oak barrels are ok as long as there is no evidence of oak in the final product?
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
If one accepts oak vanilla in wine, even as deft seasoning, where would it all end? Soon, people will be adding allspice, nutmeg, and cinnamon. A principled man, a man of honor, must draw a line in the sand and say no to additives. Down, boys, down!
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Well, chacun, etc., but your argument somewhat parallels Scalia's objections to gay marriage. Oak by-flavors must have originated as a circumstantial artifact of the elevage process, and in this way are distinct from unrelated additives, if in no other.

Anyway, we can each buy the wines we like.

originally posted by Cory Cartwright:
Who is the first winemaker/consultant/journalist/importer to come up with the seasoning analogy for oak in wine? I've heard it from too many winemakers to count, from all over the world, and always from ones where the oak is very noticeable.
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Damn my eyes, there I thought it was an original insight. But it's such an obvious comparison.
 
originally posted by Bill Lundstrom:
I'm truly curious, if you don't like even a hint of oak in your wine do you want your wines raised in stainless or concrete exclusively? Or are you saying oak barrels are ok as long as there is no evidence of oak in the final product?
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Most people who are oak averse, are averse to new barriques. Big oak foudres and barriques that are more than 3 or 4 wines really don't mark the wine with wood flavors. But there is an argument for only using inox and concrete, which is that any oak does allow more oxygenation and some varieties at least, really don't prefer that. And, of course, any wood does leave wood tannins. But I have to say, I don't usually connect wood in wine from old foudres or even sufficiently old barriques.
 
originally posted by Bill Lundstrom:
I'm truly curious, if you don't like even a hint of oak in your wine do you want your wines raised in stainless or concrete exclusively? Or are you saying oak barrels are ok as long as there is no evidence of oak in the final product?
Click to expand...

Not so much "no evidence of oak," since aeration could be called evidence of oak; simply no oak flavor. No extraneous flavors, period. So I don't buy the "we've gotten used to it, so it's different from other extraneous seasonings" argument.
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
If one accepts oak vanilla in wine, even as deft seasoning, where would it all end? Soon, people will be adding allspice, nutmeg, and cinnamon. A principled man, a man of honor, must draw a line in the sand and say no to additives. Down, boys, down!
Click to expand...

Well, chacun, etc., but your argument somewhat parallels Scalia's objections to gay marriage. Oak by-flavors must have originated as a circumstantial artifact of the elevage process, and in this way are distinct from unrelated additives, if in no other.

Anyway, we can each buy the wines we like.
Click to expand...

I disagree, you must only buy the wines I like. And the Scalia parallel cannot possibly apply since I am in favor of gay marriage.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Bill Lundstrom:
I'm truly curious, if you don't like even a hint of oak in your wine do you want your wines raised in stainless or concrete exclusively? Or are you saying oak barrels are ok as long as there is no evidence of oak in the final product?
Click to expand...

Not so much "no evidence of oak," since aeration could be called evidence of oak; simply no oak flavor. No extraneous flavors, period. So I don't buy the "we've gotten used to it, so it's different from other extraneous seasonings" argument.
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I love Barolo which spends quite a bit of time in oak. I like the more traditional producers as opposed to the ones who use small barrique to heavily influence the wine.
I feel like th best examples let the oak round out and give body to the wine.
I'm sure there are producers that use no oak at all but I'm not familiar with them. Bartolo Mascarello maybe? Or does docg law mandate the use of oak?
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
If one accepts oak vanilla in wine, even as deft seasoning, where would it all end? Soon, people will be adding allspice, nutmeg, and cinnamon. A principled man, a man of honor, must draw a line in the sand and say no to additives. Down, boys, down!
Click to expand...

Well, chacun, etc., but your argument somewhat parallels Scalia's objections to gay marriage. Oak by-flavors must have originated as a circumstantial artifact of the elevage process, and in this way are distinct from unrelated additives, if in no other.

Anyway, we can each buy the wines we like.
Click to expand...

I disagree, you must only buy the wines I like. And the Scalia parallel cannot possibly apply since I am in favor of gay marriage.
Click to expand...

Well, your argument parallels his in its manner, but it's not an apt comparison for me to make, because it might seem I'm intimating some alignment of your views with his on that subject, and I had no basis for doing so - therefore, I apologize.

The method of argument, however, is that, if you fail to draw a distinction at some point in a conceived continuum of behavior, therefore you cannot draw a point at any other point in this continuum. This argument has a certain polemic flair, but doesn't stand up logically to scrutiny, imho.

Anyway, enjoy the wines you buy. If I'm ever your host, I'll do my best to bear your preferences in mind.
 
I find that as I get older I get less interested in the details of the elevage and more interested in what I taste. Burgundy has been the great revelation, as almost all the producers I like use some amount of new oak and a few use quite a bit (*cough* Dujac *cough*) but whose wines develop into something lovely with age. The trick is to be able to discern in a young wine what its trajectory will be in later life, a trick I hasten to add that I have not mastered and likely never will. Instead, I rely on my memory of what older examples of the wine tasted like and my faith in certain winemakers.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by MLipton:
I find that as I get older I get less interested in the details of the elevage and more interested in what I taste.
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This, and everything else Mark wrote.

AKA, I always dislike wines raised in new-ish oak. Except when I don't.
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Loire Cab Franc-Based Wines
I observe in passing that these Loire CF wines, more than any other reds - in my humble experience - require accompanying food to show their more spectacular side.
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Yes indeed. I am reminded of a short piece written a few years back as an intro to a review of Clos Cristal Hospices de Saumur Saumur Champigny 2009:

The area where the Vienne meets the Loire--Saumur, Bourgueil, and Chinon--is capable of producing red wines of plainspoken elegance, and even a kind of self-effacement. I can think of some Bourgueil wines--"Les Galluches" from James Petit comes to mind--that don't really express themselves fully except in the context of a meal. Or as former colleague Elaine Thomas said, "This wine wants dinner and candlelight!"
 
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