Michael Lewis
Michael Lewis
Opened a 2002 L d'Or tonight. Premoxed. 2014 Briords to the rescue.
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Many Muscadets at Racines
- Thread starter Jay Miller
- Start date
Kay Bixler
Kay Bixler
originally posted by VLM:
Don't sleep on the 2010 Quatre. I had it for the first time (I think, who knows really) last night and was very, very impressed.
What is this wine? Somehow there is a magnum of it in my cellar.
kirk wallace
kirk wallace
I love people who break into cellars and leave delicious bottles, all surreptitious-like. And the really good ones leave large format.
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
Opened a 2002 L d'Or tonight. Premoxed. 2014 Briords to the rescue.
Argggh! That's the shits. I loved the '02 L D'Or, but drank my last a few years back. OTOH, that 2014 Briords is one of my favorites.
Mark Lipton
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
Opened a 2002 L d'Or tonight. Premoxed. 2014 Briords to the rescue.
Can you really call almost fourteen year old Muscadet premoxed, even if it is the L d'Or?
Michael Lewis
Michael Lewis
originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
Opened a 2002 L d'Or tonight. Premoxed. 2014 Briords to the rescue.
Can you really call almost fourteen year old Muscadet premoxed, even if it is the L d'Or?
I tire of this debate, but to answer your question:
Of course, not all Muscadet can or should be aged 14 years. But when you are talking about a good vintage of a particular wine that has a track record of aging very well - generally for longer than I am complaining about here - it is absolutely premox, not just ox. There are bottles of the 1989 and some vintages from the 1990s that are still interesting to drink and not oxidized (and possibly some from even before that, but I have no personal experience). The last 2002 I opened (less than a year ago) was fantastic.
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
Opened a 2002 L d'Or tonight. Premoxed. 2014 Briords to the rescue.
Can you really call almost fourteen year old Muscadet premoxed, even if it is the L d'Or?
I tire of this debate, but to answer your question:
Of course, not all Muscadet can or should be aged 14 years. But when you are talking about a good vintage of a particular wine that has a track record of aging very well - generally for longer than I am complaining about here - it is absolutely premox, not just ox. There are bottles of the 1989 and some vintages from the 1990s that are still interesting to drink and not oxidized (and possibly some from even before that, but I have no personal experience). The last 2002 I opened (less than a year ago) was fantastic.
So, you're saying one off bottle is premoxed and not just oxed or heat damaged?
Jay Miller
Jay Miller
originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
Opened a 2002 L d'Or tonight. Premoxed. 2014 Briords to the rescue.
Can you really call almost fourteen year old Muscadet premoxed, even if it is the L d'Or?
I tire of this debate, but to answer your question:
Of course, not all Muscadet can or should be aged 14 years. But when you are talking about a good vintage of a particular wine that has a track record of aging very well - generally for longer than I am complaining about here - it is absolutely premox, not just ox. There are bottles of the 1989 and some vintages from the 1990s that are still interesting to drink and not oxidized (and possibly some from even before that, but I have no personal experience). The last 2002 I opened (less than a year ago) was fantastic.
So, you're saying one off bottle is premoxed and not just oxed or heat damaged?
If some bottles are over the hill and others from the same source are pristine then yes - it's premox.
originally posted by Jay Miller:
originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
Opened a 2002 L d'Or tonight. Premoxed. 2014 Briords to the rescue.
Can you really call almost fourteen year old Muscadet premoxed, even if it is the L d'Or?
I tire of this debate, but to answer your question:
Of course, not all Muscadet can or should be aged 14 years. But when you are talking about a good vintage of a particular wine that has a track record of aging very well - generally for longer than I am complaining about here - it is absolutely premox, not just ox. There are bottles of the 1989 and some vintages from the 1990s that are still interesting to drink and not oxidized (and possibly some from even before that, but I have no personal experience). The last 2002 I opened (less than a year ago) was fantastic.
So, you're saying one off bottle is premoxed and not just oxed or heat damaged?
If some bottles are over the hill and others from the same source are pristine then yes - it's premox.
Exactly, Jay. Premox is a specific condition that affects an above normal percentage of specific bottlings in a generally, but not always, haphazard way. One oxidized bottle here and there from a bottling that has not shown widespread faults is not premox. The word gets thrown around a little too liberally and a little too wrongly.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
I think Jay was originally right. If all the L d'Or suddenly became oxidized (or even gradually), given L d'Or's track record, I'd call that premox. As the discussion has diverged, in which we are now supposing that this was one bottle, I would call that neither premoxed nor oxed but tainted (probably heat damaged)and that even if it came from a group of all my bottles, bought from the same place at the same time and stored in the same place, since they may not all have been shipped as a unit under the same conditions.
Michael Lewis
Michael Lewis
So, out the door with the idea that premox affects some bottles but not others in a seemingly random way? It is only premox if all examples of that wine oxidize? I am actually less inclined to call that premox, and more inclined to call it ox. It is (or at least it becomes) predictable for all examples of that wine.
To me, the classic example of premox is the person that bought a full case of a wine at the same time from the same source and the wine was in good condition when purchased (perhaps verified by drinking a bottle or two). The person stores the case properly from the time of purchase. Then, as the person follows the case over time, some bottles are inexplicably oxidized and while others are perfect (or too young). Of course if they start too young, become perfect, and then become oxidized in exactly that order, then it is not premox - there must be some element of randomization.
I have gone through a lot of 2002 L d'Or, mostly acquired from the same source. My experience is perhaps not the quintessential example of premox I outlined above, but it adheres closely enough to it that I am pretty sure I am experiencing premox and not an off bottle or the rapid oxidation of all 2002 L d'Or in general (by the way, this is the second premoxed bottle of this wine I have had - there was another a couple of years ago). Forgive me if I did not provide enough factual information in my earlier short post alleging premox to satisfy the powers that be.
To me, the classic example of premox is the person that bought a full case of a wine at the same time from the same source and the wine was in good condition when purchased (perhaps verified by drinking a bottle or two). The person stores the case properly from the time of purchase. Then, as the person follows the case over time, some bottles are inexplicably oxidized and while others are perfect (or too young). Of course if they start too young, become perfect, and then become oxidized in exactly that order, then it is not premox - there must be some element of randomization.
I have gone through a lot of 2002 L d'Or, mostly acquired from the same source. My experience is perhaps not the quintessential example of premox I outlined above, but it adheres closely enough to it that I am pretty sure I am experiencing premox and not an off bottle or the rapid oxidation of all 2002 L d'Or in general (by the way, this is the second premoxed bottle of this wine I have had - there was another a couple of years ago). Forgive me if I did not provide enough factual information in my earlier short post alleging premox to satisfy the powers that be.
Premox, imo, is not a storage issue or a local issue. Its roots stem from the winery and from the winemaking process, the corks, the physical bottles, etc. As a result, it affects multiple bottles from that bottling and not in any one local market.
The fact that one or multiple people may buy a case of the same wine on release and store it well and then has variation does not preclude the fact that the wine may have been subtly damaged at some point during the supply line. There are plenty of examples out there where one specific market may have been affected. However, if there are multiple reports from around the world of a wine showing oxidation problems and it can't be traced to poor storage, that's when you have a premox issue.
As it stands, I can't recall a particularly oxidized bottle of '02 L d'Or, nor have I seen multiple reports from wine lovers all over the place talking about problems with the '02, so that would lead me to not suspect that your bottle was not premoxed, but oxed.
The fact that one or multiple people may buy a case of the same wine on release and store it well and then has variation does not preclude the fact that the wine may have been subtly damaged at some point during the supply line. There are plenty of examples out there where one specific market may have been affected. However, if there are multiple reports from around the world of a wine showing oxidation problems and it can't be traced to poor storage, that's when you have a premox issue.
As it stands, I can't recall a particularly oxidized bottle of '02 L d'Or, nor have I seen multiple reports from wine lovers all over the place talking about problems with the '02, so that would lead me to not suspect that your bottle was not premoxed, but oxed.
Michael Lewis
Michael Lewis
originally posted by Brad Kane:
As it stands, I can't recall a particularly oxidized bottle of '02 L d'Or, nor have I seen multiple reports from wine lovers all over the place talking about problems with the '02, so that would lead me to not suspect that your bottle was not premoxed, but oxed.
Ahh yes, the old "it is only premox once Brad Kane says it is" theory. A corollary to the theory that there is no roast chicken out there nearly as good as Brad Kane's roast chicken.
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
originally posted by Brad Kane:
As it stands, I can't recall a particularly oxidized bottle of '02 L d'Or, nor have I seen multiple reports from wine lovers all over the place talking about problems with the '02, so that would lead me to not suspect that your bottle was not premoxed, but oxed.
Ahh yes, the old "it is only premox once Brad Kane says it is" theory. A corollary to the theory that there is no roast chicken out there nearly as good as Brad Kane's roast chicken.
Are you five years old, Michael?
Premox is a systemic issue that originates at the winery. Anything else is storage/transit or individual cork failure issues.
Michael Lewis
Michael Lewis
We can agree on premox being a systemic issue. But your standards for the extent of evidence required before someone can allege that a particular wine is premoxed are so high as to effectively prevent anyone from calling anything premoxed without being on the receiving end of a Brad Kane missive about the meaning of premox. Do I need to compile an Excel spreadsheet of examples of people around the world saying that they have had oxidized bottles (but definitely not premoxed, of course, for how could they know if they have not personally seen at least 100 other reports of oxidation?) before it is reasonable for me to post a casual sentence or two on this bored saying I think I had a premoxed bottle?
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
We can agree on premox being a systemic issue. But your standards for the extent of evidence required before someone can allege that a particular wine is premoxed are so high as to effectively prevent anyone from calling anything premoxed without being on the receiving end of a Brad Kane missive about the meaning of premox. Do I need to compile an Excel spreadsheet of examples of people around the world saying that they have had oxidized bottles (but definitely not premoxed, of course, for how could they know if they have not personally seen at least 100 other reports of oxidation?) before it is reasonable for me to post a casual sentence or two on this bored saying I think I had a premoxed bottle?
The first reaction someone should have when encountering an off bottle is to assume it's that bottle, not get on a wine board and yell premox as it seems to be in vogue to do these days whenever a wine doesn't show well. Doing a little homework is warranted. When I first started noticing a problem with the '02 Huets, I searched wine boards and cellartracker for any other reports. I asked friends if they had noticed any issues. When no one had, but then started to, they let me know and that gave me something to work with and I posted asking if others had had any issues. When folks not from the local group started expressing problems, then that was a lot more ammunition that there could be a serious problem. When folks outside the US started reporting problems, then you could eliminate an importer/distributor problem so that yes, it looked like a real premox issue. This is how it went with the various white Burgs and Trimbach issues, as well. Lots of evidence before one cries premox.
Michael Lewis
Michael Lewis
Thank you for proving my point.
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
DUDEThank you for proving my point.
Um, not really. Like a newb with no evidence whatsoever to back up your point, you cried premox. That's silly and irresponsible. The fact that you could even recognize a fault is surprising given the four or so times we've drank together you couldn't detect obviously corked bottles, one maderized, bottle and a host of oxidized bottles. In fact, you were raving about them, so maybe you should lay off the premox panic button?
Michael Lewis
Michael Lewis
As I said, I have decent anecdotal evidence for thinking it was premox, not just an off bottle. I have not conducted a Brad Kane-approved scientific study, nor was I attempting to do so. It was a casual observation - nothing more, nothing less. It is possible that after such a study, we might conclude that in fact I was wrong and there is no premox in the 2002 L d'Or.
Let's not start in on our palates. You don't like any wine without at least 50 g/L of residual sugar. And apparently you don't like any people that will not sit and bear your insufferable rants with a smile.
Let's not start in on our palates. You don't like any wine without at least 50 g/L of residual sugar. And apparently you don't like any people that will not sit and bear your insufferable rants with a smile.
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
As I said, I have decent anecdotal evidence for thinking it was premox, not just an off bottle. I have not conducted a Brad Kane-approved scientific study, nor was I attempting to do so. It was a casual observation - nothing more, nothing less. It is possible that after such a study, we might conclude that in fact I was wrong and there is no premox in the 2002 L d'Or.
Let's not start in on our palates. You don't like any wine without at least 50 g/L of residual sugar. And apparently you don't like any people that will not sit and bear your insufferable rants with a smile.
No, just insufferable types that think they know more about wine than they do. No patience for them.