Many Muscadets at Racines

Brad,

Your original point was that no 14 year old Muscadet could be considered premoxed as opposed to simply over the hill. As I said before, given that the wine in question was L d'Or, I thought you were wrong. Since you have given that claim up, I take it you have withdrawn it. Your second claim, that one bottle was many too few to know whether one were dealing with damage, taint or premox, seemed reasonable to me. At this point, your and Michael's interchanges degenerated into chest pounding, bullying, and schoolyard sarcasm on both your parts. I suggest everybody ignore everything after the original interchange, but, as a matter of curiosity, I'd like to hear more reports on the 02 L d'Or. In the spirit of doing my part, I'll taste one this weekend.
 
Scanning the thread, it seems that Brad is providing an unemotional, factual, data-gathering basis for arriving at a conclusion.

It is okay to speculate on premox, but it does seem there should be a preponderance of samplings before premox can be declared.

. . . . Pete
 
FWIW I haven't experienced any premoxed 2002 Muscadets but then I drank most of mine pretty early. Joe reported experiencing it on multiple occasions which lends credence to Michael's report.
 
originally posted by Jay Miller:
FWIW I haven't experienced any premoxed 2002 Muscadets but then I drank most of mine pretty early. Joe reported experiencing it on multiple occasions which lends credence to Michael's report.
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Yeah, I shared the experience with many of those.

2002 was particularly bad.
 
Joe was a scientist, mind, and we got systematic. The 2002 vintage was a catastrophe for premox in Pépière, Brégeon, Huet (sec and demi-sec of all vineyards; pétillant), Thomas-Labaille (esp. Cuvée Buster), Cotat F. and P. (including rosé, oddly).

He would always laugh and say that he was making more space in the cellar. But he was frankly alarmed.
 
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
So, out the door with the idea that premox affects some bottles but not others in a seemingly random way?
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Random, yes, but in substantial numbers. If 40% of your '02 L d'Ors are bad, that is a systemic problem. When one or two go bad, who knows? Could be systemic, could also be crappy shipping, crappy cork, balky mood ring....

It is only premox if all examples of that wine oxidize?
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Not all. But "more than a few".

Michael, there are plenty of reasons to gnaw on Brad but this one doesn't seem that durable.
 
I think you have it backwards, Jeff. Brad is the one gnawing on me here, or at least it started that way. All I did was post that I had a premoxed 2002 L d'Or and that 2014 Briords came to the rescue. It drew Brad's wrath for some reason. He could have simply expressed disagreement with my conclusion and/or offered a different data point - perhaps he had some 2002 L d'Or recently and had a different experience. That would have been no problem. Instead, I was subjected to a know-it-all lecture that (1) I am a noob who does not understand premox (or, in Brad's opinion, apparently any other flaw) and (2) Brad just about invented the whole idea of premox when he published a peer-reviewed study of 2002 Huet in the journal Science. Fuck that. Great teachers do not impart wisdom that way, and they sure as shit don't make it so obvious that they want the world to think they are great teachers. We are all in a perpetual state of learning about wine, so more humility ought to be required from a guy that still doesn't understand why anyone likes mature red Burgundy.

On the substance of this debate, as I have already said, I am in complete agreement that premox has to be systemic. Right now I have only anecdotal data (as does Brad, by the way). A few good bottles, followed by an oxidized bottle, followed by a few good bottles, followed by another oxidized bottle, all from the same source; plus the many other reports of 2002 premoxed Muscadet and other wines from the Loire. I am at about a 25% failure rate at the moment, with another 5 or 6 bottles still to be opened. I would genuinely be happy to hear about other data points.
 
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
Brad just about invented the whole idea of premox when he published a peer-reviewed study of 2002 Huet in the journal Science. Fuck that. Great teachers do not impart wisdom that way, and they sure as shit don't make it so obvious that they want the world to think they are great teachers. We are all in a perpetual state of learning about wine, so more humility ought to be required from a guy that still doesn't understand why anyone likes mature red Burgundy.
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What a stupid statement, Michael. I went through how I went about deducing that there were premox issues with much of the '02 Huet line. It's called building a case. Aren't you a lawyer? Don't you know how to do that, or do you get your evidence from one source and loudly yell, "I rest my case!"

Getting back to the original point, Jonathan, about the age. Just because the '89 and '90 L d'Or are still good, doesn't mean that's the normal aging curve. Personally, I find the curve shorter and, for that matter, with regard to the '89, I think it drank a lot better ten years ago than it has anytime since. At age fourteen, as this '02 is, even the best Muscadet just aren't young.
 
originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
Brad just about invented the whole idea of premox when he published a peer-reviewed study of 2002 Huet in the journal Science. Fuck that. Great teachers do not impart wisdom that way, and they sure as shit don't make it so obvious that they want the world to think they are great teachers. We are all in a perpetual state of learning about wine, so more humility ought to be required from a guy that still doesn't understand why anyone likes mature red Burgundy.
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What a stupid statement, Michael. I went through how I went about deducing that there were premox issues with much of the '02 Huet line. It's called building a case. Aren't you a lawyer? Don't you know how to do that, or do you get your evidence from one source and loudly yell, "I rest my case!"

Getting back to the original point, Jonathan, about the age. Just because the '89 and '90 L d'Or are still good, doesn't mean that's the normal aging curve. Personally, I find the curve shorter and, for that matter, with regard to the '89, I think it drank a lot better ten years ago than it has anytime since. At age fourteen, as this '02 is, even the best Muscadet just aren't young.
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Classic confusion of issues. You may not like them as much with more age on them. But that doesn't mean they tend to be oxidized at 14. I think the 02s are the oldest Muscadets I have in my cellar. They are still there because I still liked them in 12, 13, 14 and 15. If they are oxidized now, they dropped off a cliff. I don't know if that is evidence of premox or ox. As I said, I'll taste one of my remaining handful this weekend and weigh in.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
Brad just about invented the whole idea of premox when he published a peer-reviewed study of 2002 Huet in the journal Science. Fuck that. Great teachers do not impart wisdom that way, and they sure as shit don't make it so obvious that they want the world to think they are great teachers. We are all in a perpetual state of learning about wine, so more humility ought to be required from a guy that still doesn't understand why anyone likes mature red Burgundy.
Click to expand...

What a stupid statement, Michael. I went through how I went about deducing that there were premox issues with much of the '02 Huet line. It's called building a case. Aren't you a lawyer? Don't you know how to do that, or do you get your evidence from one source and loudly yell, "I rest my case!"

Getting back to the original point, Jonathan, about the age. Just because the '89 and '90 L d'Or are still good, doesn't mean that's the normal aging curve. Personally, I find the curve shorter and, for that matter, with regard to the '89, I think it drank a lot better ten years ago than it has anytime since. At age fourteen, as this '02 is, even the best Muscadet just aren't young.
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Classic confusion of issues. You may not like them as much with more age on them. But that doesn't mean they tend to be oxidized at 14. I think the 02s are the oldest Muscadets I have in my cellar. They are still there because I still liked them in 12, 13, 14 and 15. If they are oxidized now, they dropped off a cliff. I don't know if that is evidence of premox or ox. As I said, I'll taste one of my remaining handful this weekend and weigh in.
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No confusion whatsoever, Jonathan. I was trying to be nice at first and then things changed. Are you telling me there's no thread drift on this board?

Just as some people here have a bug up their ass about the use of "varietal," or typos, some of us have them about the use of premox, which too many people use on the various boards anytime they have an of bottle.
 
The confusion was entirely in your last message between a wine that you do not prefer with age on it and a wine that you expect to be over the hill (in the sense of oxidized) at that age. You may have preferred the 89 L d'Or a few years ago, but that hardly means it's oxidized. If you are saying that it is normal for L d'Ors to be oxidized at age 14, all I can say is that my insufficient experience leads me to disagree.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
The confusion was entirely in your last message between a wine that you do not prefer with age on it and a wine that you expect to be over the hill (in the sense of oxidized) at that age. You may have preferred the 89 L d'Or a few years ago, but that hardly means it's oxidized. If you are saying that it is normal for L d'Ors to be oxidized at age 14, all I can say is that my insufficient experience leads me to disagree.
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I didn't say the '89 was oxidized. I said it was better ten years ago. There is also a distinction between oxidized and showing oxidation, with the former more apt to describe a shot wine. However, a wine not being as fresh as it was in its youth is due to normal oxidation and I'd certainly argue that a 14 year old Muscadet is certainly showing affects of oxidation.
 
Which 14 year old muscadet? Not my last Briords 01 last year, at any rate. And do you mean by "showing the affects of oxidation," the same thing you would mean, as a matter of how it tastes and not as a matter of the cause, the same thing you would mean when you say "premoxed?" And what will be the conclusion if on Monday morning I report that my 02 L d'Or was showing well (stipulating that I am not taste impaired and can sense oxidation)?
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Which 14 year old muscadet? Not my last Briords 01 last year, at any rate. And do you mean by "showing the affects of oxidation," the same thing you would mean, as a matter of how it tastes and not as a matter of the cause, the same thing you would mean when you say "premoxed?" And what will be the conclusion if on Monday morning I report that my 02 L d'Or was showing well (stipulating that I am not taste impaired and can sense oxidation)?
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Jonathan, I'm not going down the pedantic trail with you. Premox has a specific connotations. One thing that wasn't mentioned was that it tends to strike relatively early in the normal aging curve of normally long lived wines. From what I've experienced and read with regard to what's been happening with White Burgs, Trimbach, the '02 Huets and others, is that it seems to strike 5-9 years in. That's not the situation we have here. What we have here is probably either low grade heat damage and /or cork failure causing oxidation and it being labeled as premox since that seems to be the thing to do these days.
 
originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Which 14 year old muscadet? Not my last Briords 01 last year, at any rate. And do you mean by "showing the affects of oxidation," the same thing you would mean, as a matter of how it tastes and not as a matter of the cause, the same thing you would mean when you say "premoxed?" And what will be the conclusion if on Monday morning I report that my 02 L d'Or was showing well (stipulating that I am not taste impaired and can sense oxidation)?
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Jonathan, I'm not going down the pedantic trail with you. Premox has a specific connotations. One thing that wasn't mentioned was that it tends to strike relatively early in the normal aging curve of normally long lived wines. From what I've experienced and read with regard to what's been happening with White Burgs, Trimbach, the '02 Huets and others, is that it seems to strike 5-9 years in. That's not the situation we have here. What we have here is probably either low grade heat damage and /or cork failure causing oxidation and it being labeled as premox since that seems to be the thing to do these days.
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Why do you assume that? I'm confused as to why it's okay to assume it was heat damage or cork failure but not to assume that it's premox.

I would have suspected the former myself based on personal experience if not for Joe reporting multiple times on the latter over the years.
 
originally posted by Jay Miller:
originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Which 14 year old muscadet? Not my last Briords 01 last year, at any rate. And do you mean by "showing the affects of oxidation," the same thing you would mean, as a matter of how it tastes and not as a matter of the cause, the same thing you would mean when you say "premoxed?" And what will be the conclusion if on Monday morning I report that my 02 L d'Or was showing well (stipulating that I am not taste impaired and can sense oxidation)?
Click to expand...

Jonathan, I'm not going down the pedantic trail with you. Premox has a specific connotations. One thing that wasn't mentioned was that it tends to strike relatively early in the normal aging curve of normally long lived wines. From what I've experienced and read with regard to what's been happening with White Burgs, Trimbach, the '02 Huets and others, is that it seems to strike 5-9 years in. That's not the situation we have here. What we have here is probably either low grade heat damage and /or cork failure causing oxidation and it being labeled as premox since that seems to be the thing to do these days.
Click to expand...

Why do you assume that? I'm confused as to why it's okay to assume it was heat damage or cork failure but not to assume that it's premox.

I would have suspected the former myself based on personal experience if not for Joe reporting multiple times on the latter over the years.
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Where are the threads on any wine board expressing concern about it, Jay? Why are there only two recent negative notes about it on cellartracker? Why haven't you or I experienced it and I'm sure we've both had plenty of experience with the wine, as have many of our mutual friends. If there's such a rampant problem, why aren't they mentioned in the same breath as '02 Huets and the various Hunes and Frederic Emiles that have been affected? There's no widespread evidence that there's been a serious problem with the wine and if there's something developing now, it's really outside the age when premox strikes.
 
originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Which 14 year old muscadet? Not my last Briords 01 last year, at any rate. And do you mean by "showing the affects of oxidation," the same thing you would mean, as a matter of how it tastes and not as a matter of the cause, the same thing you would mean when you say "premoxed?" And what will be the conclusion if on Monday morning I report that my 02 L d'Or was showing well (stipulating that I am not taste impaired and can sense oxidation)?
Click to expand...

Jonathan, I'm not going down the pedantic trail with you. Premox has a specific connotations. One thing that wasn't mentioned was that it tends to strike relatively early in the normal aging curve of normally long lived wines. From what I've experienced and read with regard to what's been happening with White Burgs, Trimbach, the '02 Huets and others, is that it seems to strike 5-9 years in. That's not the situation we have here. What we have here is probably either low grade heat damage and /or cork failure causing oxidation and it being labeled as premox since that seems to be the thing to do these days.
Click to expand...

As of now, heat damage or cork failure would be a good guess. If I get oxed bottles, I may revise. And because I clearly disagree with you about the aging curve of L d'Or, I will therefore say premox and a pox on you if you disagree.
 
originally posted by Brad Kane:
originally posted by Jay Miller:


Why do you assume that? I'm confused as to why it's okay to assume it was heat damage or cork failure but not to assume that it's premox.

I would have suspected the former myself based on personal experience if not for Joe reporting multiple times on the latter over the years.
Click to expand...

Where are the threads on any wine board expressing concern about it, Jay? Why are there only two recent negative notes about it on cellartracker? Why haven't you or I experienced it and I'm sure we've both had plenty of experience with the wine, as have many of our mutual friends. If there's such a rampant problem, why aren't they mentioned in the same breath as '02 Huets and the various Hunes and Frederic Emiles that have been affected? There's no widespread evidence that there's been a serious problem with the wine and if there's something developing now, it's really outside the age when premox strikes.
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a) not a lot of people were putting 2002 Muscadets away outside of this bored
b) I only put away about 6 bottles (a lot for me at the time) and most of those were consumed relatively early so my experience isn't very relevant.
c) why do you assume a problem must be rampant for it to exist? but Joe certainly mentioned experiencing it frequently and he put a lot more down than I did. I tried using the bored's search function but...
d) I'm not aware that premox always strikes at the same time for a given wine. I've never heard that before. I agree that it often seems to start affecting random bottles at the 5-6 year mark.
 
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