TN: 2005 Morgon, Lapierre
- Thread starter Larry Stein
- Start date
Pavel Tchichikov
Pavel Tchichikov
I recently had a 76 and an 89 from Barbet and found them to have aged as well as chateau des jacques in a similar time frame, but far more interesting.
Not sure how Lapierre made its way back into the conversation when I said clearly that I fully agree on their inability to age (in fact, I don't even care for them young anymore). If one is strongly attached to the gang of four but wants to keep bottles forever then yes - a change in style is required, and something like Barbet would already represent a significant shift.
Not sure how Lapierre made its way back into the conversation when I said clearly that I fully agree on their inability to age (in fact, I don't even care for them young anymore). If one is strongly attached to the gang of four but wants to keep bottles forever then yes - a change in style is required, and something like Barbet would already represent a significant shift.
Ok, I get what you are saying. Obviously individual preferences can lean toward young and fresh riesling. I assume you mean off-dry versions, the dry wines don't give nearly as much in the young and fresh stage IMHO. But at least you acknowledge that denying the virtues of aged riesling is controversial (and probably wrong)!
Pavel Tchichikov
Pavel Tchichikov
I am usually not into red wine with cheese at all, but do try Billards St Amour with a decent Mont d'Or.
Bill Lundstrom
Bill Lundstrom
does Cuvee Marcel come in S and N?
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
Good thoughts here. I generally don't even lump Desvignes or Jadot into the category of "Beaujolais" given their vinification difference - Joe D once berated me here for using the term "Burgundian" so I'll avoid it - and if I'm honest, I don't love those wines either, as they seem to take away their exuberance and into something more like a dense, high quality Touraine Gamay. One of the wonders of semi-carbonic vinification is the accelerated aging profile - a decade plus or minus does the trick.
Of course other nice agers are Coudert, Chermette, Jean Paul's crus, Pavillon de Chavannes...anything with balance and acid. I'm never quite sure what to make of Thivin - it always feels a little hard to me, but I wonder if a lot of patience would yield something special.
I would not agree that Lapierre won't age, at least Marcel's...about 15 years ago we drank our way back about 15 years with him at the domain, and it was one of the coolest, most sublime, and interesting wine experiences I've had. Everything stood up, each a completely interesting yet different wine.
BTW, the 16 Lapierre Julienas is fairly glorious, with nary a hint of brett, at least here in Jet City.
Of course other nice agers are Coudert, Chermette, Jean Paul's crus, Pavillon de Chavannes...anything with balance and acid. I'm never quite sure what to make of Thivin - it always feels a little hard to me, but I wonder if a lot of patience would yield something special.
I would not agree that Lapierre won't age, at least Marcel's...about 15 years ago we drank our way back about 15 years with him at the domain, and it was one of the coolest, most sublime, and interesting wine experiences I've had. Everything stood up, each a completely interesting yet different wine.
BTW, the 16 Lapierre Julienas is fairly glorious, with nary a hint of brett, at least here in Jet City.
Bill Lundstrom
Bill Lundstrom
yes, the 16 Julienas is pretty terrific wine.
Todd Abrams
Todd Abrams
Thivin is one of the most underrated Beaujolais producers out there. Pure and sappy without over-extraction. I'll take Claude Geoffray's Cote de Brouilly over Foillard's Cote du Py every time. But I am also of the opinion that a little too much carbonic maceration is way too much carbonic maceration (not that this is an issue with Foillard, see Coquelet).
I was chatting with Thibault Liger-Belair a few months ago. He has an operation in Moulin-a-Vent and even his Beaujolais-Villages is vinified without carbonic maceration with the intention of fully expressing terroir.
Thibault cited Thivin as his personal favorite producer. The stylistic connections are clear.
Keith Levenberg
Keith Levenberg
Liger-Belair makes a terrific vignes centenaires Moulin-a-Vent that I believe is partially pre-phylloxera, and would definitely be on my short list for cellaring... wish it were cheaper though.
Maybe I haven't been able to properly understand/appreciate the Thivin wines, but they never seem to move me like Foillard (probably because I started out drinking Beaujolais w Foillard, so much of this is personal emotion and history).
But my loss is your gain, because Thivin is roughly half the price of Foillard.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
This idea that carbonic expresses terroir less than conventional, which I've seen elsewhere, may be a "user illusion".
Todd Abrams
Todd Abrams
Perhaps. I believe it's an issue of balance. I've certainly had a fair share of Cru Beaujolais with carbonic being the overwhelming characteristic of the wine.
To your point, recent vintages of Maxime Magnon's Rozeta from old vine carignan in Corbieres/Fitou is worth consideration here. It's both clearly semi-carbonic and Mediterranean. In my experience the level of carbonic maceration has changed over time. Presumably in a quest for the proper balance.
I personally do not mind a shift to "Burgundian" techniques in Beaujolais. But I couldn't tell you if it's because I prefer blackberries over strawberries or there is something more to the idea of carbonic masking terroir.
I recall a conversation with Jules Dressner at a Real Wine Attack in Chicago. On the topic of CM, he said he wasn’t a fan because all the wines tasted the same to him. I have memories of CM wines from other regions of France that were totally marked by CM character. That was all 5 or so years ago, so producers may well have learned how to tone it down.
Mark Lipton
Mark Lipton
Bill Lundstrom
Bill Lundstrom
i looked at the bottles i have and there is an "S" designation on the back label of the Cuvee Marcels. Which doesn't mean there are "N" bottlings but perhaps there are.
Larry Stein
Larry Stein
Opened that bottle of '09 N on Monday with 9 other wine geeks. It started off a bit murky and seemed a touch too ripe. However, enough acidity appeared to balance everything out. It was quite delicious and was a hit with the other folks. It was definitely a drink-now wine so I'll drink my remaining bottles in the near-term. It'll be interesting to see if all the other bottles are as good as this one.
Interesting, Larry. I’ve stayed clear of my 09s to let the ripeness subside. Maybe it’s time to crack one or two. I’m pretty sure that I don’t have any Lapierre though: that was the year that the Parker bored “discovered” Beaujolais and all the Lapierre vanished from the shelves locally.
Mark Lipton