Yes, but be delicious

R

Robert Dentice

Robert Dentice
This was posted on the Berserkers Board. I thought it would be interesting to post here and I also did not feel like responding over there.

Coincidentally I was also in Copenhagen this summer for four days and probably ate in the same restaurants and I came away feeling almost the same. I did have a few good wines including a beautiful Cossard St Aubin and a no SO2 special Cuvée made for Noma by Ulli Stein. However I also had many wines mostly from newer producers in the natural mold that were just boring and was struck by the sameness of every list in Copenhagen and how similar they were to restaurants in Paris. I think it is a bad thing if every list has the same 25 natural producers as there is so much great wine in the world. I like when somms/wine stores go out on a limb and champion an unknown region or producer instead of following a playbook which is what seems to be happening on a global basis in the places I dine.

Andy Peay
 
I see some faulty thinking (like the false opposition between process-driven and terroir-driven winemaking), but lack the energy to mount a critique. Despite the differences, I see parallels to how many mourn the decline of beauty in modern and contemporary art. As if in art one could say "yes, but be beautiful." Behind the reasonable tone, the author just seems nostalgic for a return of the what is in the glass school of wine enjoyment.
 
Robert,
Can you give me the names of the restaurants other then Noma in Copenhagen?

I looked at Noma's wine list, there is lots of classic and "natural" and other wines there.

That list made me very happy. The wines go for a lot of Kroner, but no doubt a great list.
 
originally posted by Marc D:
Robert,
Can you give me the names of the restaurants other then Noma in Copenhagen?

I looked at Noma's wine list, there is lots of classic and "natural" and other wines there.

That list made me very happy. The wines go for a lot of Kroner, but no doubt a great list.
Click to expand...

Amass, Baest, Geranium, Kadeau and a few wine bars.
 
Tasting good for wine is like being accurate in literary and art criticism. It's a necessary condition but a far sight from a sufficient one for the wine to be worth drinking. It may be more necessary for wine as I doubt anyone would want to drink a wine that tasted offensive to them. But as with criticism, being interesting matters or why bother wasting one's time.
 
originally posted by Robert Dentice:
originally posted by Marc D:
Robert,
Can you give me the names of the restaurants other then Noma in Copenhagen?

I looked at Noma's wine list, there is lots of classic and "natural" and other wines there.

That list made me very happy. The wines go for a lot of Kroner, but no doubt a great list.
Click to expand...

Amass, Baest, Geranium, Kadeau and a few wine bars.
Click to expand...

Do others read AP's blog post to say that he didn't go to noma? or at least he wasn't complaining about its wine list?

I think we'd all agree noma's list is full of delicous AND interesting wines. (In my case this June, Prevost Facsimile and '11 Overnoy Poulsard; but there were many many other delicious choices; but no bordeaux, as an annoying and frustrated client from Beverly Hills was informedat their bar/lounge).

And as Robert knows, Geranium's list has a great selection of "new" natural and excellent traditional (albeit generally those who farm organically) producers. I had a great bottle of '09 Marguet rose and a superb '07 Rougeard Poyeux there.

I can't imagine anyone who engaged the sommelier at Amass or Relae would not get delicious wines there either. Even less famous places had nice wines at not bad prices. Radio comes to mind. In fact, as I previously posted here, it was at Amass that the wine director steered me to Tschida'a GV "non-tradition" (2012) that was as interesting and delicious as any GV i can recall, including anything from Hirtzberger, Prager or Knoll -- especially at a comparable age. I re-read AP's post this AM and, other than yes, many of the restaurants that focus on "natural" wine have some substantial overlap on their lists (Tschida, ganevat, octavin, amaury beaufort les larmes de divona, etc.), I can't actually recognize the CPH I experienced this summer (nor the one 3 summers ago) from his report.

I just can't imagine anybody who cares at all about wine sitting for an afternoon at Ved Stranden 10 coming back to tell us that there is nothing delicious there to drink. I think the opposite is the problem. There is just not enough time (or liver) in the world to do more than scratch the surface of their offerings. (2013 Domaine des Miroirs Mizuiro Chardonnay -- the Japanese couple in the Jura that has been mention here in various posts -- was just one totally delicious and captivating example.)
 
Thanks for all the thoughtful responses. A few years ago I would have vehemently disagreed with his post. I surprised myself that I was actually closer to agreeing with him than not. That is not to say there are not many great wines on these lists. I think my experience might have differed from Kirk's because on two trips in July (Paris and Copenhagen) I intentionally decided to try many producers that are not available in the U.S. Many of them were from the Austrian natural crew. Overall I was was underwhelmed. Of course I had many great wines from the standards (Selosse, Clos Rougeard, Overnoy, etc.)

I also found myself in partial agreement with the writer who recently wrote the article on New California article.

New California

I might be just drinking too much great German riesling and the SO2 is going to my brain.

On a more positive note I had a lovely tasting and visit last weekend at La Garagista - wonderful wines and really great people.

La Garagista

NY Times article on La Garagista
 
Experimentation has its perils (as well as its rewards). Although I did let myself be a guinea pig, at the suggestion of the wonderful Fannie at Relae, for Maison Brûlée "Vin de Voile" -- touraine sav blanc sous voile. And it was friggin delicious. And very interesting. Is sous voile in Touraine spoof?
 
"I also found myself in partial agreement with the writer who recently wrote the article on New California article.

New California

I might be just drinking too much great German riesling and the SO2 is going to my brain. "

Robert,
Regarding this piece:
- "obviously incomplete" seems to me to be a non-specific and clearly subjective criticism
- relative value is in the eye of the beholder.

Living in Sonoma has given me the opportunity to meet with a number of people in the business; sales, criticism and production. And it has been a delight to search out the new and the different. IMO, Mr. Appel has not been as conscientious in doing so; had he been, he might be as impressed with New California as I am.
Best, Jim
 
i'd add that, unless things have changed recently, if portland, maine is his base for exploring the world of wine there is A LOT he won't be exposed to.
 
originally posted by kirk wallace:
Experimentation has its perils (as well as its rewards). Although I did let myself be a guinea pig, at the suggestion of the wonderful Fannie at Relae, for Maison Brûlée "Vin de Voile" -- touraine sav blanc sous voile. And it was friggin delicious. And very interesting. Is sous voile in Touraine spoof?
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I guess there are at least a couple of people doing it with Menu Pineau. Christophe Foucher with his delicious 2 Temps en Temps and Julien Courtois with his Savasol.
 
So, does that make it not spoofy? I loved the one I had, but I mistrust myself: in my youth, I drank oaky French and California Chardonnay. Maybe I should just go with pleasure.
 
originally posted by kirk wallace:
So, does that make it not spoofy? I loved the one I had, but I mistrust myself: in my youth, I drank oaky French and California Chardonnay. Maybe I should just go with pleasure.
Click to expand...

We hold you to a higher standard.
 
originally posted by Robert Dentice:
Thanks for all the thoughtful responses. A few years ago I would have vehemently disagreed with his post. I surprised myself that I was actually closer to agreeing with him than not.
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Embracing my usual role as a lurker, I clicked on the link to Peay's piece thinking I'd give it a quick read and move along, but this comment parallels my own experience and for some reason I felt compelled to expand on it.

Using the noma list as a reference since it's a focal point of the author's critique, I find myself simultaneously thinking that Peay is a curmudgeon and is also entirely correct.

For example, Sicilian reds on that list are limited almost exclusively to Cornelissen. I enjoy those wines too -- but where's the COS, Pietradolce, or any other reds from other areas of the island? The same applies to most of the Rhone, Piedmont, et cetera.

Certainly a restaurant is entitled to its point of view (or to simply let a somm develop that point of view) and to pick and choose what they're going to represent. And anyone who looks at noma's list and can't find something interesting and delicious to drink is just trying to be a difficult crank. Further, I think, Peay's article falls short to some extent because it reads a bit like someone upset that his region and preferred style of wines isn't better represented in lots of places, noma included.

But that said, with three pages of Jura whites compared to a third of a page of whites from ALL of Spain, or with two producers representing all of Piedmont, I take the curmudgeonly author's point to some degree. "Natural" wine and bottles fashionable to those in the know, like Jura wines, certainly dominate a lot of conversation. And while a list as long as noma's (at least from what I can see online having never been) can't be as limiting as his rant claims, there's still a nugget of truth to what he says: Sometimes the conversation obscures the idea that delicious does not necessitate natural and even just that natural is kind of a moving target.

Even everything I just wrote is all sort of bullshit, I suppose, since generalizations on this level are more or less impossible. But there's certainly something to why Mr. Dentice and I found ourselves drawn to the argument that Peay made. As Mr. Dentice suggested later with his comment about SO2 in some great Riesling and as Peay notes in his title and then strays from as he goes on, delicious wine is delicious and hard to ignore, regardless of what other labels might be attached to it.
 
Something very odd is going on here. If one wants "classic" wine in CPH (or Paris) there are places that offer it. E.g., AOC in CPH http://www.restaurantaoc.dk/images/graphics/Vinkort.pdf. ( For Paris, let's start with Taillevent...)

There is some cognitive dissonance, to me, in saying, I want to try the noma- spin offs (or noma itself, but again, it doesn't seem clear that AP did that ), but I want them to serve wines that are different from the wines that their commercial and esthetic judgments lead them to.

( Robert's point is different from AP's, I think. Robert is saying, he loves both the cooking and the wines that he knows at these places, but when he explores to see who is not being imported into the US, sometimes the wines are amateurish or otherwise disappointing. I am not surprised by that, and I love the fact that Robert has the adventurer's spirit. And I've been a grateful beneficiary of his bringing back the successes to share, while having sucked up the failures on his own, many, many times. )
 
originally posted by kirk wallace:
There is some cognitive dissonance, to me, in saying, I want to try the noma- spin offs (or noma itself, but again, it doesn't seem clear that AP did that ), but I want them to serve wines that are different from the wines that their commercial and esthetic judgments lead them to.
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Fair -- but isn't it at least somewhat fair to say that there is now a pretty well defined global conversation about natural wine and about very particular regions that are more fashionable than others? Of course a sommelier can decide to have Cornelissen represent all of Sicily on a list or to have three pages of Jura whites, and that can be fun, delicious, and rewarding.

But to make those choices and to ignore simultaneously some very interesting newer wines from, say, Galicia, Asturias, Priorat, Penedes, etc in Spain strikes me as fully embracing the current trend, hence Mr. Dentice's lament about the same 20 producers, etc. It certainly can feel that way some times.

There's nothing actually wrong with that, of course, which is part of why AP comes off as a curmudgeon. But there's something to be said for restaurants and shops, let alone GREAT restaurants and shops, showcasing new producers within classic regions and/or digging up other under-discussed regions and winemakers. I've seen in wine shops around here a clerk that will try to guide someone asking about natural wines into trying something new that is low SO2, largely biodynamic. And instead of even saying thanks but no thanks, they essentially claim the clerk has no idea what they're talking about and head for the Dressner wines they've had before. Great wines to be sure, but the customer is buying into a brand more than anything. And while it's a handful of anecdotal episodes, seeing conversations like those and feeling like those same 20 producers do show up on a lot of lists these days help me sympathize just a tiny bit for part of AP's position.
 
Again I concur that the crux of what Andy is saying is correct. Liking something natural for natural's sake is not enough and it is the job of a restaurant, even with a point of view, to take their guests in mind and have delicious wine for everyone. Though I would cringe when an over ripe California Cabernet was ordered at the beginning of a 20 course meal at Alinea, it made many people's experiences more special. The job of the wine professional is to create a palette for the guest to choose from and be happy with.

But at the same time many producers view their wines and correctly so as world class. They want to see wines and reference point wines to them on the lists of world class restaurants to support the work they are doing and have done. As I have spent a fair amount of time with Andy he is a fierce believer in the West of West Sonoma Coast and his opinions are more than just wines should be delicious. As we separate ourselves further to each side of the argument a centrists point of view, like Andy's though he obviously has a stake as he is a producer, is important.

What he and no one else brings up in these conversations re: natural wine is that many of these wines are initially values which is why we give them a chance. Yes they quickly, through our loud support, creep up in price. But for as many that get vaulted to a cult status, so many get left to the wayside. As the pendulum swings we will probably see less of all of these extremes, and the best will rise to the top. We all, including Andy, have our own causes and sometimes they are just as delicious as the wines. But causes grow and fade, to some they are fashion and to some they are real. Noma and restaurants like it are constantly evolving and as they change so will the wine list. Who knows what Andy's next trip to Copenhagen or Paris will be like, but certainly there will be new ideas to take up between now and then. Truchot to many gave way to Engel in terms of the next producer who stopped producing to collect. It is seemingly the way the wine world is going.
 
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