No more tipping!?!

Peter Creasey

Peter Creasey

Peter Creasey
Anyone in favor of no longer tipping on expensive wine charge?

Beginning of a trend?

Big news out of Manhattan: Dining out is about to get turned on its head.
Union Square Hospitality Group, the force behind some of New York’s
most important restaurants, will announce today that starting in November,
it will roll out an across-the-board elimination of tips at every one of its
thirteen full-service venues, hand in hand with an across-the-board
increase in prices. It’s a radical move — while many individual high-end
restaurants have eliminated tipping, this is surely the first time zero-gratuity
will be the universal policy for a major American restaurant group —
casual restaurants included. Never before have so many diners been faced
with such a sea change in how they pay for a full-service meal, and what
they are expected to understand a fair price (and a fair wage) to be.
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No Tipping Restaurants

. . . . . . Pete
 
hallelujah if you work in the kitchen. if prices go up 20% (and you have been tipping 20%) it's a wash for the customer. the intent is not to reduce the cost of dining.

the imbalance in earnings between front of house and back of house is huge.

full disclosure--some of my earnings are from front of house service.
 
originally posted by robert ames:
hallelujah if you work in the kitchen. if prices go up 20% (and you have been tipping 20%) it's a wash for the customer. the intent is not to reduce the cost of dining.

the imbalance in earnings between front of house and back of house is huge.

full disclosure--some of my earnings are from front of house service.
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It might be a wash for the customer in terms of price but not in terms of the anxiety/annoyance caused by tipping. Actually, I think he said prices would rise more than 20% since it needs to cover both waiters and increase for back of house. I'm still in favor of it.
 
Pete's question concerns the rather specialized concern of wine geeks: whether they should tip 20% on very expensive bottles of wine. One sees this issue bruited about over at Wine Berserker's. It seems rather rarified to me, but it is a question. Will the mark-ups on expensive wine also go up 20%? And if they did, would anyone already paying that much notice?
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Pete's question concerns the rather specialized concern of wine geeks: whether they should tip 20% on very expensive bottles of wine. One sees this issue bruited about over at Wine Berserker's. It seems rather rarified to me, but it is a question. Will the mark-ups on expensive wine also go up 20%? And if they did, would anyone already paying that much notice?
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indeed.
 
Interesting question! I've only read a couple of press releases on this no tipping policy and they only mentioned possible price increases on food...no mention of wine prices increasing.

I don't read Wine Berzerkers so can't comment on the dialogue there, but it does seem off-putting, at best, to pay 20% gratuity on an expensive wine.

In any case, I would much prefer to pay whatever the product and service costs rather than have to tack on a gratuity.

. . . . . Pete
 
originally posted by Peter Creasey:

Interesting question! I've only read a couple of press releases on this no tipping policy and they only mentioned possible price increases on food...no mention of wine prices increasing.
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It may not have been mentioned, but I'm absolutely sure that will be the case.

I don't read Wine Berzerkers so can't comment on the dialogue there, but it does seem off-putting, at best, to pay 20% gratuity on an expensive wine.
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Uh, then stay at home and drink it. If you can afford a $200 bottle in a restaurant you can afford to support the staff and the wine program. If you can't then drink less expensive wine when you go out.

In any case, I would much prefer to pay whatever the product and service costs rather than have to tack on a gratuity.

. . . . . Pete
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No idea what you mean here. If you "tack" on a set gratuity or include it the price of the item, it is basically the same thing.

I think two key points were missing in the discussion about the USHG. Well, one was mentioned: Europeans "forgetting" to leave tips; that's why they are starting with The Modern - more tourists there. Second (and key) point: I think they did the numbers and decided this was the way to go after learning that the tipped minimum wage was going up.
 
originally posted by mark e:
No idea what you mean here. If you "tack" on a set gratuity or include it the price of the item, it is basically the same thing.
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It may be the same thing in terms of dollars and cents but it's a very different thing in terms of the relationship between restaurant and guest. I think a tipless culture is conducive to a more professional relationship less fraught with servant/servee awkwardness.
 
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
originally posted by mark e:
No idea what you mean here. If you "tack" on a set gratuity or include it the price of the item, it is basically the same thing.
Click to expand...
It may be the same thing in terms of dollars and cents but it's a very different thing in terms of the relationship between restaurant and guest. I think a tipless culture is conducive to a more professional relationship less fraught with servant/servee awkwardness.
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I completely agree. The only small drawback is management's ability to get some metric on service from a customer's point of view.

As a restaurant-goer, I have no particular preference for either system.
 
originally posted by mark e:
The only small drawback is management's ability to get some metric on service from a customer's point of view.
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Aren't tips almost completely divorced from level of service and dependent on individual patrons' quirks? (Except for true outliers in terms of poor/stellar service.)
 
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
originally posted by mark e:
The only small drawback is management's ability to get some metric on service from a customer's point of view.
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Aren't tips almost completely divorced from level of service and dependent on individual patrons' quirks? (Except for true outliers in terms of poor/stellar service.)
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Not entirely. Those data points (from quirky/asshole/cheap/dyspeptic customers) are usually so far from the mean (I"m sure VLM will correct my erroneous use of statistical terms) as to be meaningless.

There is probably some significant difference between two servers, one who tracks, say 22-25%, over time vs. one who generally averages around 18%. It is up to the owner/manager to try to understand why (and, yes, it can be reasons such as customers blaming servers for the fact that food doesn't come out in a timely fashion - though an adept server can deal with that in an elegant way if he/she desires).
 
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
originally posted by mark e:
No idea what you mean here. If you "tack" on a set gratuity or include it the price of the item, it is basically the same thing.
Click to expand...
It may be the same thing in terms of dollars and cents but it's a very different thing in terms of the relationship between restaurant and guest. I think a tipless culture is conducive to a more professional relationship less fraught with servant/servee awkwardness.
Click to expand...

I completely agree. The only small drawback is management's ability to get some metric on service from a customer's point of view.

As a restaurant-goer, I have no particular preference for either system.
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They can put a survey card or link with the check if they want more data. Fast food restaurants figured that one out long ago!
 
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
originally posted by mark e:
No idea what you mean here. If you "tack" on a set gratuity or include it the price of the item, it is basically the same thing.
Click to expand...
It may be the same thing in terms of dollars and cents but it's a very different thing in terms of the relationship between restaurant and guest. I think a tipless culture is conducive to a more professional relationship less fraught with servant/servee awkwardness.
Click to expand...

I completely agree. The only small drawback is management's ability to get some metric on service from a customer's point of view.

As a restaurant-goer, I have no particular preference for either system.
Click to expand...
They can put a survey card or link with the check if they want more data.
Click to expand...

Doesn't really work. Most people hate them and you will get complaints but very infrequently will you get compliments. And the sample size is negligible.
 
As for cost/payment changes, here is what Danny Meyer says...

Once these changes are implemented, the total cost you pay to dine with us won’t differ much from what you pay now. But for our teams, the change will be significant. We will now have the ability to compensate all of our employees equitably, competitively, and professionally.
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It will be interesting to track this and see how it plays out.

. . . . . Pete
 
originally posted by mark e:
Doesn't really work. Most people hate them and you will get complaints but very infrequently will you get compliments. And the sample size is negligible.
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Okay, fine, but millions of businesses, large and small, manage to do personnel evaluations of salary and wage employees. There's nothing unique about restaurants that would prevent them from doing the same.
 
originally posted by Josh Fontaine:
Pretty airtight argument against tipping, including why some are tipped less than others (racism, sexism) :

Why Tipping Is Wrong - NY Times
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Great article. Having spent years working in restaurant trenches, I think this is an especially vital point:

"Worse still, this two-tiered system is the reason the restaurant industry is the single largest source of sexual harassment claims in the United States. Women forced to live on tips are compelled to tolerate inappropriate and degrading behavior from customers, co-workers and managers in order to make a living. So while restaurants employ about seven percent of American women, nearly 37 percent of all sexual harassment claims to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission come from restaurants."

Not that I would ascribe 100% of the blame to tipping culture. But it's a big contributing factor.
 
It seems to me that the issue is this: What exactly are you buying when you give a tip?

If you are actually buying the waiter's attention -- something you should not have to do! -- then you should expect the no-tipping plan to result in lackadaisical service. This is a fear for many diners.

If you are supporting the restaurant as a whole -- something everyone in favor of this plan advocates -- then it should not matter under what conditions the "extra" money is transferred.

If you are making yourself feel like a grand arbiter of justice -- let's not under-sell the fun of playing Trick-or-Treat nor the ego-boo of making everyone wait while you hand down a decision -- then the no-tipping plan will feel like a loss of control and prestige. I think there are diners who feel this way, though many others would rather be freed of the burden of this decision altogether.

And this extends to the wine service quite logically. What am I paying for? If it's glasses, decanting, and pouring, well, I suppose the $40 spent on the hypothetical $200 bottle got me just as much stuff/service as the $10 that I paid on the $50 bottle. That's just throwing money away, right?

Speaking for myself, I am fine with the no-tip plan, though I am annoyed at paying taxes on it: neither the governor nor the mayor did anything to deserve additional revenue on my meal. I will also regret not having the opportunity to reward outstanding service -- for example, if a restaurant is willing to permit a jeebus they deserve something extra for the unusual demands we make on them.
 
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