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Is Paris burnin'?
- Thread starter Oswaldo Costa
- Start date
Terry Angleton
Terry Angleton
originally posted by Peter Creasey:
What blows my mind is the increasing (BIG) number of (intelligent) people who use "I", "he", "they", etc. as objects of verbs and prepositions. Example: They gave John Doe and I a gift...They gave a gift to John Doe and I.
It really grates.
. . . . . Pete
I am with Pete on this.
Or is it Pete's with me?
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
In October of 2015 we drank a 2013 Ganevat Plein Sud Trousseau Côtes du Jura 10.5% which disappointed by being much more acid than sweet. It was sour in a strident way, making it difficult to enjoy. In the last two evenings, the disappointment was repeated with the 2014 harvest.
2014 J. F. Ganevat Cuvée de l'Enfant Terrible Poulsard Côtes du Jura 10.0%
Beautiful aroma, hinting at semi-carbonic, with Asian spices and pitanga-cherry. Mouth is aggressively sour, begging on its knees for food. But comestibles did not improve it, still way too sour.
2014 J.F. Ganevat Plein Sud Trousseau Côtes du Jura 10.0%
Another beautiful aroma, very similar to the previous, I’d say indistinguishable in a blind tasting. Is it the semi-carbonic leveler? Mouth a little less acid than the Poulsard, but still considerably more acid than sweet. Again, did not improve with food.
It seems to be general knowledge that these harvests were difficult for the Ganevat, with much loss of yield due to rot and frost, forcing (?) him to become négociant. But what I didn’t know (no one told me!) was that his proprietary cuvées (at least some) had serious maturity problems (if my interpretation is correct).
Much as I appreciate lower abv's, these three bottles seemed to lack at least one or two degrees of alcoholic sweetness. Perhaps climatic conditions did not allow Ganevat to harvest later, and he chose to not correct them in the cellar. Fine from a natural wine ethics point of view, but not pleasant for the gullet.
2014 J. F. Ganevat Cuvée de l'Enfant Terrible Poulsard Côtes du Jura 10.0%
Beautiful aroma, hinting at semi-carbonic, with Asian spices and pitanga-cherry. Mouth is aggressively sour, begging on its knees for food. But comestibles did not improve it, still way too sour.
2014 J.F. Ganevat Plein Sud Trousseau Côtes du Jura 10.0%
Another beautiful aroma, very similar to the previous, I’d say indistinguishable in a blind tasting. Is it the semi-carbonic leveler? Mouth a little less acid than the Poulsard, but still considerably more acid than sweet. Again, did not improve with food.
It seems to be general knowledge that these harvests were difficult for the Ganevat, with much loss of yield due to rot and frost, forcing (?) him to become négociant. But what I didn’t know (no one told me!) was that his proprietary cuvées (at least some) had serious maturity problems (if my interpretation is correct).
Much as I appreciate lower abv's, these three bottles seemed to lack at least one or two degrees of alcoholic sweetness. Perhaps climatic conditions did not allow Ganevat to harvest later, and he chose to not correct them in the cellar. Fine from a natural wine ethics point of view, but not pleasant for the gullet.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
Thanks for these notes, O.
Michael Lewis
Michael Lewis
When we were in the Jura in 2015 we were also told that the Suzukii flies (Drosophila Suzukii) were especially bad in 2014. Apparently they really fucked up the Poulsard, especially, for a lot of producers, although I gather they can also affect other varieties.
I do not remember if we were poured the Cuvee de l'Enfant Terrible when we were visiting Ganevat, but if it had been a good vintage for the wine I am almost certain I would remember, because usually I like that wine a fair bit more than other people do.
Julien Mareschal went as far as to make a white Ploussard that year from some of the grapes that were not in good enough shape to to use for the normal red Ploussard. The white was something of an experiment - more interesting than enjoyable. I doubt he ever sold it commercially.
I do not remember if we were poured the Cuvee de l'Enfant Terrible when we were visiting Ganevat, but if it had been a good vintage for the wine I am almost certain I would remember, because usually I like that wine a fair bit more than other people do.
Julien Mareschal went as far as to make a white Ploussard that year from some of the grapes that were not in good enough shape to to use for the normal red Ploussard. The white was something of an experiment - more interesting than enjoyable. I doubt he ever sold it commercially.
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
originally posted by Terry Angleton:
originally posted by Peter Creasey:
What blows my mind is the increasing (BIG) number of (intelligent) people who use "I", "he", "they", etc. as objects of verbs and prepositions. Example: They gave John Doe and I a gift...They gave a gift to John Doe and I.
It really grates.
. . . . . Pete
I am with Pete on this.
Or is it Pete's with me?
I sometimes wonder how strong the correlation is between intelligence (whatever that is) and disciplined use of textbook grammar. Usage skill must largely be caused by training, which, in turn, is largely caused by opportunity, rather than intelligence, per se.
Speaking for myself, most of what I know about English grammar, I learned studying German in college. Did that process make me more intelligent (snarky responses here not required)?
There are some situations where very precise expression is essential to effective communication. In the large majority of cases, however, communication is replete with context and redundancy, so that meaning can adequately be conveyed and discerned without prepositions landing in exactly the right place, pronouns assuming just the right case, or even accurate spelling.
I often think of such authors as Chaucer and Shakespeare, who worked at times when conventions of grammar and orthography were extremely loose, by the standards of this board. Was their intelligence wanting? Would their creative output have been enhanced or constrained, had they constantly been looking over their shoulders for fear of blowback about the details of their writing mechanics?
There is fun to be had in splitting such hairs, but it's reasonable to attend as much to the intended meaning of one's interlocutor, as to the details of its expression.
Odd Rydland
Odd Rydland
Them was dumb I say!
But good points Ian.
But good points Ian.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
It is virtually self-evident that the ability to follow the rules of grammar is not a mark of native intelligence but of training. I think the most important training is reading. I learned the names of parts of sentences, as Ian did, studying foreign languages and learned how to analyze sentences far more in linguistic classes than in grammar or junior high school. Still, perverted usage is also a matter of training. Using the a subjective case pronoun with apreposition, as in between he and I, doesn't come naturally. It's an attempt to sound learned gone wrong. There are many other examples.
Michael Lewis
Michael Lewis
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
Julien Mareschal went as far as to make a white Ploussard that year from some of the grapes that were not in good enough shape to to use for the normal red Ploussard. The white was something of an experiment - more interesting than enjoyable. I doubt he ever sold it commercially.
One little update on this, which I came across coincidentally while browsing the website of a retail shop I like. It appears he did sell it commercially (or some version of what we tasted anyway). It is being sold as the 2014 Domaine de la Borde Poulsard Blanc "Veneon". If anyone buys a bottle, I would be curious to know how the wine turned out in bottle.