Charvin with Charvin

originally posted by BJ:
Neat. I've always enjoyed their CdR.

Interesting you're on to 2005 and beyond, Jonathan. I'm still stuck at the turn of the century. But I guess I've been there a while, so perhaps it's time to move on.

We did have a sublime 99 Charbonniere H Brusquieres the other night.
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I have a lot of CdP from 98-01 and some still from 94 and 95. I'm pretty actively drinking up the 94s and 95s. Except for the places whose name everybody knows--Beaucastel, VT, VD (before the dark side), Pegau,well, you know--they are mostly, for me at the moment to have one's last bottle of one's stash. I am currently drinking 04-06 (which, with some exceptions--Pegau in 05 being a big one), are in a very good place, to keep my hands off my remaining 98s to 01s for a few more years. I'll soon, in two years or so switch to 09s and 10s to keep my hands off of my remaining 04s-06s. I don't generally drink sequentially, even according to the rule of 15, much as I respect it.
 
The rule of 15 doesn't apply to the south Rhone. Only north, and quality ones at that. Grenache just comes around earlier, except, to me, Rasteau and Gigondas...speaking in generalities of course.
 
You think Gigondas takes longer to come around than Chateauneuf? Or Vacqueyras, for that matter? What Gigondas do you have in mind?
 
Most of them. I generally find Gigondas and Rasteau to be the longest haul of the S. Rhones; the longest to soften. Vacqueyras is bigger but looser, easier to come apart. The Bachman Turner Overdrive of the S. Rhone. I'm not talking about a big difference, more like a five year difference.

For example the Soumade 99-01s are actually still secondary. Pallieres, similar. Can't say that about most CNP's.
 
I agree with Cliff's surprise. Cayrons and Pallieres of old used to be good for the long haul. Pallieres may still be but I don't have much experience with them after 2000, when they got pricey. Raspail Ay can age. I just had an 01 a couple of nights ago which was drinking beautifully. After that, I think of them as needing to be drunk by 10 or 12. In Vacqueyras, Domaine de la Garrigue seems to last easily to 15 years (I drank my last 98 this past year and it wasn't even breathing heavily) as does their Gigondas. Sang de Cailloux also ages and Chateau des Tours. After that, not so much for me. Even these will not outlast the Pegaus, VTs and Charvins of the world.
 
I have splurged on some PallIières, so I am eager to see how they do. I think the rule in Gigondas is 8-12. I find the Trapadis les Adrès takes awhile to come around, but around 10-12 years in a good vintage. That's the only one I age.
 
I forgot Trapadis. I've stopped buying them in France since they are clearly not meant to be drunk young and I have nowhere to age them. If I could find them in the US, I might spring for some to age. I forgot that we recently discovered a 100%% Mourvedre (thus VdP) from Rabasse Charavin of which they were selling the 01 as recently as last December and may still be and have just released the 04. Not your normal Cairanne though.
 
Right. I have some of that Rabasse Charavin, too, from the late 1990s. I would put that on a similar aging curve to some of the traditional Chateauneufs. But it will not hit the same heights, and it is very unusual stuff. I'm curious to see how the Oratoire Saint Martin Mourvèdres develop. They are not as backward; I've never had one with more than a few years.

The Trapadis is lovely. But, as we saw, it just doesn't compare side by side with even an off year Charvin. ETA, not that it should. Having had them separately, I would have thought so, but no.
 
I think people lump Rasteau, Cairanne, Sablet, Gigondas and Vacqueyras roughly together in my experience. I personally have found them to be very different, generally speaking, recognizing there's a lot of variability depending on vineyard locations. I think of Cairanne not being a long haul wine at all, it goes to sandalwood very quickly, whereas Rasteau generally is just stern and more unyielding. As I said earlier I think the same for Gigondas, esp. more traditional producers, just seem to stay in secondaries for a very long time, longer than most CNP producers (excepting maybe those with vineyards facing north - such as Janasse Chaupin). Raspail Ay, Pallieres, Bouissiere, Saint Gayan, Raspail, St. Damien - .

Just my two cents.
 
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