Sold!

[Jeff Grossman]

Of course, it's been going on since forever.

Yet, somehow, the recent sale of Vietti to Kyle Krause seemed shocking. There aren't many "corporate ventures" in Piedmont, a place that is still mostly family-run.

Now, Biondi-Santi is going to be a stable-mate with Piper-Hiedsick.

I've read that half of Italy is for sale. Anybody know any other transactions?

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

A Brazilian investment banker called André Esteves, currently under investigation, bought Argiano in 2013...

 

[Levi Dalton]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

I've read that half of Italy is for sale.

That is an inflammatory comment, and doesn't jive with the tendency of Italians in particular to value long term land ownership. If you take Vigna Rionda, for example, which is considered one of the great vineyards of Serralunga and the Barolo zone in general, there is an unplanted segment owned by a family that both refuses to plant it and refuses to sell it. That sort of phenomenon is more in keeping with my experience of Italian views on land ownership.

 

[MarkS]

Want to buy Monte dei Paschi?

 

[slaton]

originally posted by Levi Dalton:
there is an unplanted segment owned by a family that both refuses to plant it and refuses to sell it

Truffle forest?

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Levi Dalton:

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

I've read that half of Italy is for sale.

That is an inflammatory comment, and doesn't jive with the tendency of Italians in particular to value long term land ownership. If you take Vigna Rionda, for example, which is considered one of the great vineyards of Serralunga and the Barolo zone in general, there is an unplanted segment owned by a family that both refuses to plant it and refuses to sell it. That sort of phenomenon is more in keeping with my experience of Italian views on land ownership.

Agreed. I am not alone in perceiving these recent sales as a sea change.

[ The posted article said, "In Toscana si racconta addirittura come "metà dei vigneti del Chianti Classico" siano in vendita." ]

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

originally posted by Levi Dalton:

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

I've read that half of Italy is for sale.

That is an inflammatory comment, and doesn't jive with the tendency of Italians in particular to value long term land ownership. If you take Vigna Rionda, for example, which is considered one of the great vineyards of Serralunga and the Barolo zone in general, there is an unplanted segment owned by a family that both refuses to plant it and refuses to sell it. That sort of phenomenon is more in keeping with my experience of Italian views on land ownership.

Agreed. I am not alone in perceiving these recent sales as a sea change.

[ The posted article said, "In Toscana si racconta addirittura come "metà dei vigneti del Chianti Classico" siano in vendita." ]

A huge change, though Tuscany has always had properties for sale - and less aversion to selling them to foreigners. I will say that Vigna Rionda is an exceptional case as locals consider it, well, sacred; it is certainly the vineyard most Piemontesi in the know would call a "grand cru."

When I lived in Piemonte (1976-1994) I really don't think anyone would have sold me a vineyard in the Langhe. I did, however, have the chance to work a great old-vine Barbera vineyard in the astigiano, but the vineyard had been in my wife's family since the 1600s.

 

[Oliver McCrum]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

[ The posted article said, "In Toscana si racconta addirittura come "metà dei vigneti del Chianti Classico" siano in vendita." ]

I would imagine that foreign ownership (and non-Tuscan ownership) in the Chianti Classico area is already higher than in other parts of Italy, so this may even be true.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

A few names here, for sale by Sotheby's.

 

[Levi Dalton]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
A few names here, for sale by Sotheby's.

A few names does not half of Italy make. Italy accounts for something like 15% of the world's wine output, there have been estimates of close to a million different wineries producing in Italy, and most are owned by single families. Think about it.

 

[Tristan Welles]

originally posted by Levi Dalton:

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
A few names here, for sale by Sotheby's.

A few names does not half of Italy make. Italy accounts for something like 15% of the world's wine output, there have been estimates of close to a million different wineries producing in Italy, and most are owned by single families. Think about it.

wow, one for every 60 people. What percent are for family consumption? I'd guess the majority. That does speak of a thoroughly traditional approach.

ps- Levi; I notice you occasionally use 'jive' when I think you mean jibe. Hopefully I am not missing ironic intent.

 

[Levi Dalton]

originally posted by Tristan Welles:

originally posted by Levi Dalton:

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
A few names here, for sale by Sotheby's.

A few names does not half of Italy make. Italy accounts for something like 15% of the world's wine output, there have been estimates of close to a million different wineries producing in Italy, and most are owned by single families. Think about it.

wow, one for every 60 people. What percent are for family consumption? I'd guess the majority. That does speak of a thoroughly traditional approach.

ps- Levi; I notice you occasionally use 'jive' when I think you mean jibe. Hopefully I am not missing ironic intent.

Tristan,

I will readily admit to making mistakes at times. One mistake that I do not recall ever making is asserting that 400,000+ wineries in Italy are readily for sale. Let's say that you had provided some evidence here - which of course, you didn't - that a large percentage of Italian wineries only produce for their own consumption. I still don't see anything that would lead me to believe that even 200,000+ Italian wineries are for sale, which is less than a fourth of the probable total of wineries.

As I wrote before, think about it. Don't just gravitate towards a "sky is falling" statement because it seems appealing to you for some reason.

 

[Jay Miller]

originally posted by Levi Dalton:

originally posted by Tristan Welles:

wow, one for every 60 people. What percent are for family consumption? I'd guess the majority. That does speak of a thoroughly traditional approach.

ps- Levi; I notice you occasionally use 'jive' when I think you mean jibe. Hopefully I am not missing ironic intent.

Tristan,

I will readily admit to making mistakes at times. One mistake that I do not recall ever making is asserting that 400,000+ wineries in Italy are readily for sale. Let's say that you had provided some evidence here - which of course, you didn't - that a large percentage of Italian wineries only produce for their own consumption. I still don't see anything that would lead me to believe that even 200,000+ Italian wineries are for sale, which is less than a fourth of the probable total of wineries.

As I wrote before, think about it. Don't just gravitate towards a "sky is falling" statement because it seems appealing to you for some reason.

Except Tristan never made such a claim. He just indulged in the time honored Disorderly tradition of correcting misuse of a colloquialism.

 

[Levi Dalton]

originally posted by Jay Miller:

originally posted by Levi Dalton:

originally posted by Tristan Welles:

wow, one for every 60 people. What percent are for family consumption? I'd guess the majority. That does speak of a thoroughly traditional approach.

ps- Levi; I notice you occasionally use 'jive' when I think you mean jibe. Hopefully I am not missing ironic intent.

Tristan,

I will readily admit to making mistakes at times. One mistake that I do not recall ever making is asserting that 400,000+ wineries in Italy are readily for sale. Let's say that you had provided some evidence here - which of course, you didn't - that a large percentage of Italian wineries only produce for their own consumption. I still don't see anything that would lead me to believe that even 200,000+ Italian wineries are for sale, which is less than a fourth of the probable total of wineries.

As I wrote before, think about it. Don't just gravitate towards a "sky is falling" statement because it seems appealing to you for some reason.

Except Tristan never made such a claim. He just indulged in the time honored Disorderly tradition of correcting misuse of a colloquialism.

Which claim are you referring to, Jay? Please be specific.

When Tristan said "What percent are for family consumption? I'd guess the majority" he made a claim which I was responding to. When Jeff said "I've read that half of Italy is for sale" there was another claim brought forth, and I was reponding to that as well.

I didn't think it was so hard to follow, but maybe I am also guilty of making unfounded assumptions.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

What Jeff said was obvious hyperbole. I know you've always had a problem with that. Tristan made a guess, which is usually taken to be different from a claim.

I doubt that anyone really disagrees with you (Jeff? Tristan?) that only a small minority of wineries are for sale at the moment. Is it not true that far more than usual are for sale and that some of them, again an unusual number, are significant properties? If this is not true, you have an argument with Jeff. If not, this is all about nothing.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

It was hyperbole, not an assertion of fact.

 

[Tristan Welles]

originally posted by Levi Dalton:

originally posted by Tristan Welles:

originally posted by Levi Dalton:

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
A few names here, for sale by Sotheby's.

A few names does not half of Italy make. Italy accounts for something like 15% of the world's wine output, there have been estimates of close to a million different wineries producing in Italy, and most are owned by single families. Think about it.

wow, one for every 60 people. What percent are for family consumption? I'd guess the majority. That does speak of a thoroughly traditional approach.

ps- Levi; I notice you occasionally use 'jive' when I think you mean jibe. Hopefully I am not missing ironic intent.

Tristan,

I will readily admit to making mistakes at times. One mistake that I do not recall ever making is asserting that 400,000+ wineries in Italy are readily for sale. Let's say that you had provided some evidence here - which of course, you didn't - that a large percentage of Italian wineries only produce for their own consumption. I still don't see anything that would lead me to believe that even 200,000+ Italian wineries are for sale, which is less than a fourth of the probable total of wineries.

As I wrote before, think about it. Don't just gravitate towards a "sky is falling" statement because it seems appealing to you for some reason.

Levi,

My apologies for the leading the discussion down this path when I had no intention of doing so. My "wow" comment was strictly expressing surprise that there are a million different wineries in Italy, which adds up to 1 for every 60 people in the country. I am sure a huge number of these are for private consumption only.

Hopefully I am not missing ironic intent.

Happy holidays to everyone -- hope there are a few bottles of Barolo ready.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Levi Dalton:

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
A few names here, for sale by Sotheby's.

A few names does not half of Italy make. Italy accounts for something like 15% of the world's wine output, there have been estimates of close to a million different wineries producing in Italy, and most are owned by single families. Think about it.

I'm not sure of those numbers. Here are some from The National Institute for Statistics (Istat):

"Nel 2010 c’erano 383 mila aziende, la meta’ del 2000, con una superficie vitata in calo del 12%. Quindi la dimensione media, nei 10 anni, è passata da 0.9 a 1.6 ettari per azienda."

So to summarize 383,000 in 2010 (half of 2000) but that is not wineries, that includes small growers. In fact, the data are: average size went from 0.9 to 1.6 hectares. Now those are very small; it probably means that quite a few must be less than ½ acre.

 

[Levi Dalton]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Is it not true that far more than usual are for sale and that some of them, again an unusual number, are significant properties?

I haven't seen any evidence that "far more than usual are for sale", no. Have you? Please present it. Otherwise, admit that you are making an assumption, which you are not alone in doing in this thread. "Far more than usual are for sale" now, compared to what period? Compared to when the model of sharecropping ran its course in Tuscany and vast numbers of sharecroppers left the land they had been farming? When subsequent to that, a large number of properties in Tuscany were purchased by outsiders to the zone? When Banfi purchased Poggio alle Mura in 1983? When Gaja bought Pieve Santa Restituta in 1994? Look at a book about Italian wine with a copyright in the 1980s. Look at the lineup of Brunello you see listed there. Compare to today and please inform me if more estates are for sale today.

Hyperbole isn't helpful to understanding what is happening. Assumptions aren't either. If you have something to say that isn't either, please post it.

 

[Levi Dalton]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Levi Dalton:

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
A few names here, for sale by Sotheby's.

A few names does not half of Italy make. Italy accounts for something like 15% of the world's wine output, there have been estimates of close to a million different wineries producing in Italy, and most are owned by single families. Think about it.

I'm not sure of those numbers. Here are some from The National Institute for Statistics (Istat):

"Nel 2010 c’erano 383 mila aziende, la meta’ del 2000, con una superficie vitata in calo del 12%. Quindi la dimensione media, nei 10 anni, è passata da 0.9 a 1.6 ettari per azienda."

So to summarize 383,000 in 2010 (half of 2000) but that is not wineries, that includes small growers. In fact, the data are: average size went from 0.9 to 1.6 hectares. Now those are very small; it probably means that quite a few must be less than ½ acre.

You are right, it appears that the 1 million number is no longer accurate. I apologize for using an outdated number. Thank you for the clarification. I do understand "Aziende" to mean company, that is, winery.