Sold!

[mark e]

originally posted by Levi Dalton:

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Levi Dalton:

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
A few names here, for sale by Sotheby's.

A few names does not half of Italy make. Italy accounts for something like 15% of the world's wine output, there have been estimates of close to a million different wineries producing in Italy, and most are owned by single families. Think about it.

I'm not sure of those numbers. Here are some from The National Institute for Statistics (Istat):

"Nel 2010 c’erano 383 mila aziende, la meta’ del 2000, con una superficie vitata in calo del 12%. Quindi la dimensione media, nei 10 anni, è passata da 0.9 a 1.6 ettari per azienda."

So to summarize 383,000 in 2010 (half of 2000) but that is not wineries, that includes small growers. In fact, the data are: average size went from 0.9 to 1.6 hectares. Now those are very small; it probably means that quite a few must be less than ½ acre.

You are right, it appears that the 1 million number is no longer accurate. I apologize for using an outdated number. Thank you for the clarification. I do understand "Aziende" to mean company, that is, winery.

Actually, not. Azienda vitivinicola could be anywhere from the giant Banfi to a guy with ¼ acre of vines in Piemonte. I remember applying for EU vineyard replanting subsidies in the 80s and our Azienda was under a hectare of vineyards without a winery. But winery is a relative term, too. Farms with a tiny upright fermenter and a botte would be a winery in an Italian census, like the one I cited from ISTAT.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Levi Dalton:

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Levi Dalton:

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
A few names here, for sale by Sotheby's.

A few names does not half of Italy make. Italy accounts for something like 15% of the world's wine output, there have been estimates of close to a million different wineries producing in Italy, and most are owned by single families. Think about it.

I'm not sure of those numbers. Here are some from The National Institute for Statistics (Istat):

"Nel 2010 c’erano 383 mila aziende, la meta’ del 2000, con una superficie vitata in calo del 12%. Quindi la dimensione media, nei 10 anni, è passata da 0.9 a 1.6 ettari per azienda."

So to summarize 383,000 in 2010 (half of 2000) but that is not wineries, that includes small growers. In fact, the data are: average size went from 0.9 to 1.6 hectares. Now those are very small; it probably means that quite a few must be less than ½ acre.

You are right, it appears that the 1 million number is no longer accurate. I apologize for using an outdated number. Thank you for the clarification. I do understand "Aziende" to mean company, that is, winery.

Actually, not. Azienda vitivinicola could be anywhere from the giant Banfi to a guy with ¼ acre of vines in Piemonte. I remember applying for EU vineyard replanting subsidies in the 80s and our Azienda was under a hectare of vineyards without a winery. But winery is a relative term, too. Farms with a tiny upright fermenter and a botte would be a winery in an Italian census, like the one I cited from ISTAT. If the trend is still accurate, then the number of Aziende might be around 200,000 now.

 

[Levi Dalton]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Levi Dalton:

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Levi Dalton:

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
A few names here, for sale by Sotheby's.

A few names does not half of Italy make. Italy accounts for something like 15% of the world's wine output, there have been estimates of close to a million different wineries producing in Italy, and most are owned by single families. Think about it.

I'm not sure of those numbers. Here are some from The National Institute for Statistics (Istat):

"Nel 2010 c’erano 383 mila aziende, la meta’ del 2000, con una superficie vitata in calo del 12%. Quindi la dimensione media, nei 10 anni, è passata da 0.9 a 1.6 ettari per azienda."

So to summarize 383,000 in 2010 (half of 2000) but that is not wineries, that includes small growers. In fact, the data are: average size went from 0.9 to 1.6 hectares. Now those are very small; it probably means that quite a few must be less than ½ acre.

You are right, it appears that the 1 million number is no longer accurate. I apologize for using an outdated number. Thank you for the clarification. I do understand "Aziende" to mean company, that is, winery.

Actually, not. Azienda vitivinicola could be anywhere from the giant Banfi to a guy with ¼ acre of vines in Piemonte. I remember applying for EU vineyard replanting subsidies in the 80s and our Azienda was under a hectare of vineyards without a winery. But winery is a relative term, too. Farms with a tiny upright fermenter and a botte would be a winery in an Italian census, like the one I cited from ISTAT. If the trend is still accurate, then the number of Aziende might be around 200,000 now.

Just to be clear, the chart I posted is from ISTAT numbers. However, a perusal of the ISTAT website did not give me a sense of what the number of Aziende is today, 6 years later. Stats for HL of production are readily available from a number of sources. Producer quantity numbers, less so.

The chart is, in one way of looking at it, evidence that a lot of transactions have already occurred in the past. This leads me back to my thought that if someone were to say that "far more than usual are for sale" now, I would have to wonder what "usual" period they were referring to.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

Very curious table. It says that the number of aziende is shrinking rather quickly; places like Liguria are practically in free-fall. Is there a well-known reason for it?

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Very curious table. It says that the number of aziende is shrinking rather quickly; places like Liguria are practically in free-fall. Is there a well-known reason for it?

From that same set of data:

Note the average size of vineyard in Liguria: It had been 0.2 hectares and in 2010 was 0.3. This is not economically sustainable and many vineyards have been abandoned. At the best of times, these were very arduous to work (think: Mosel) because everything had to be done by hand. And the scarce land became so expensive that it was more advantageous to sell to developers. Add to this that the oceans of cheap "Ligurian" wine sold to tourists in the summer actually came from Tuscany.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

Levi, that was an actual question, not a rhetorical question, as my next sentence, which envisions either possible answer, makes clear. I offer no evidence because I don't know the answer. That is one of the reasons one asks questions.

Good luck on your campaign to end the use of hyperbole. When someone in a restaurant says that they would like to order a bottle of wine that does not cost an arm and a leg, do you usually take them literally? Do you also have trouble knowing when you've been asked a question? (Hint: the first question was rhetorical; the second question was not).

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by mark e:
Note the average size of vineyard in Liguria: It had been 0.2 hectares and in 2010 was 0.3. This is not economically sustainable and many vineyards have been abandoned. At the best of times, these were very arduous to work (think: Mosel) because everything had to be done by hand. And the scarce land became so expensive that it was more advantageous to sell to developers. Add to this that the oceans of cheap "Ligurian" wine sold to tourists in the summer actually came from Tuscany.

Thanks, Mark. So, in addition to however many vineyards are sold-off to developers, the rest are coalescing into fewer but larger estates.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

originally posted by mark e:
Note the average size of vineyard in Liguria: It had been 0.2 hectares and in 2010 was 0.3. This is not economically sustainable and many vineyards have been abandoned. At the best of times, these were very arduous to work (think: Mosel) because everything had to be done by hand. And the scarce land became so expensive that it was more advantageous to sell to developers. Add to this that the oceans of cheap "Ligurian" wine sold to tourists in the summer actually came from Tuscany.

Thanks, Mark. So, in addition to however many vineyards are sold-off to developers, the rest are coalescing into fewer but larger estates.

I'm not so sure about the coalescing part. If you look at the table indicating the number of estates in Liguria posted by Levi and compare it with the vineyard size table that doesn't seem to be what is going on. If the number of estates had halved and the average vineyard size had doubled, then that would confirm the formation of larger estates, but - alas - vineyards are disappearing.

 

[Levi Dalton]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Levi, that was an actual question, not a rhetorical question, as my next sentence, which envisions either possible answer, makes clear. I offer no evidence because I don't know the answer. That is one of the reasons one asks questions.

Good luck on your campaign to end the use of hyperbole. When someone in a restaurant says that they would like to order a bottle of wine that does not cost an arm and a leg, do you usually take them literally? Do you also have trouble knowing when you've been asked a question? (Hint: the first question was rhetorical; the second question was not).

Jonathan,

I am not sure why you have decided to make this about me personally, as opposed to trying to add anything substantive to the discussion. Regarding your authority on both subjects, you are out of your depth.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by mark e:
I'm not so sure about the coalescing part. If you look at the table indicating the number of estates in Liguria posted by Levi and compare it with the vineyard size table that doesn't seem to be what is going on. If the number of estates had halved and the average vineyard size had doubled, then that would confirm the formation of larger estates, but - alas - vineyards are disappearing.

Liguria is exceptional. For many of the rows on this table, from the first column to the last, they've dropped by a factor of 4-5 and half the rows in your table are up by a factor of 3-4.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by Levi Dalton:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Levi, that was an actual question, not a rhetorical question, as my next sentence, which envisions either possible answer, makes clear. I offer no evidence because I don't know the answer. That is one of the reasons one asks questions.

Good luck on your campaign to end the use of hyperbole. When someone in a restaurant says that they would like to order a bottle of wine that does not cost an arm and a leg, do you usually take them literally? Do you also have trouble knowing when you've been asked a question? (Hint: the first question was rhetorical; the second question was not).

Jonathan,

I am not sure why you have decided to make this about me personally, as opposed to trying to add anything substantive to the discussion. Regarding your authority on both subjects, you are out of your depth.

And yet you still don't answer my original queston. Mark and Jeff are providing an interesting discussion, though.

 

[Levi Dalton]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by Levi Dalton:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Levi, that was an actual question, not a rhetorical question, as my next sentence, which envisions either possible answer, makes clear. I offer no evidence because I don't know the answer. That is one of the reasons one asks questions.

Good luck on your campaign to end the use of hyperbole. When someone in a restaurant says that they would like to order a bottle of wine that does not cost an arm and a leg, do you usually take them literally? Do you also have trouble knowing when you've been asked a question? (Hint: the first question was rhetorical; the second question was not).

Jonathan,

I am not sure why you have decided to make this about me personally, as opposed to trying to add anything substantive to the discussion. Regarding your authority on both subjects, you are out of your depth.

And yet you still don't answer my original queston. Mark and Jeff are providing an interesting discussion, though.

I think I have been pretty clear about it, actually. But whatever your problem is with me on a personal level, it isn't allowing for you to process the responses.

It seems like what you are objecting to is my posting here. It seems to be bothering you that I am interacting here. So I will happily post more often. Thanks for the nudge.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Levi Dalton:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by Levi Dalton:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Levi, that was an actual question, not a rhetorical question, as my next sentence, which envisions either possible answer, makes clear. I offer no evidence because I don't know the answer. That is one of the reasons one asks questions.

Good luck on your campaign to end the use of hyperbole. When someone in a restaurant says that they would like to order a bottle of wine that does not cost an arm and a leg, do you usually take them literally? Do you also have trouble knowing when you've been asked a question? (Hint: the first question was rhetorical; the second question was not).

Jonathan,

I am not sure why you have decided to make this about me personally, as opposed to trying to add anything substantive to the discussion. Regarding your authority on both subjects, you are out of your depth.

And yet you still don't answer my original queston. Mark and Jeff are providing an interesting discussion, though.

I think I have been pretty clear about it, actually. But whatever your problem is with me on a personal level, it isn't allowing for you to process the responses.

It seems like what you are objecting to is my posting here. It seems to be bothering you that I am interacting here. So I will happily post more often. Thanks for the nudge.

I don't want to answer for Johnathan (and this is clearly mined territory) but I don't think he is objecting to your posting, at all, rather it is not picking up on unwritten social cues. I say this without any criticism intended.

But we are off topic, and I do think you are right about the number of properties for sale. That probably hasn't changed all that much over time. Wealthy Romans have been buying farmland in Tuscany forever. Before, however, none of this would ever have been listed online where the general public could see it.

 

[Levi Dalton]

originally posted by mark e:

I don't want to answer for Johnathan (and this is clearly mined territory) but I don't think he is objecting to your posting, at all, rather it is not picking up on unwritten social cues. I say this without any criticism intended.

It is either a community that is interested in a discussion about wine, or it isn't, and both you and Jonathan are hinting that, primarily, it isn't. At any rate, I have an account here, as I have since it was founded, and I will now be using it more often.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Levi Dalton:

originally posted by mark e:

I don't want to answer for Johnathan (and this is clearly mined territory) but I don't think he is objecting to your posting, at all, rather it is not picking up on unwritten social cues. I say this without any criticism intended.

It is either a community that is interested in a discussion about wine, or it isn't, and both you and Jonathan are hinting that, primarily, it isn't.

Nope. I think this is actually about wine - at least that's why I'm here - but clearly there is something else going on underwater that I'm not privy to.

 

[Yixin]

Good Lord.

 

[Karen Goetz]

originally posted by Yixin:
Good Lord.

Seconded.

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

Haven't read a thread like this in a while ... microwaving popcorn as I write.

 

[Levi Dalton]

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Haven't read a thread like this in a while ... microwaving popcorn as I write.

I would have thought roasting peanuts, for your gallery.

 

[Chris Coad]

originally posted by Yixin:
Good Lord.

Well summed-up.