Southern Rhone wines thread

L

Levi Dalton

Levi Dalton
What have you been drinking from the Southern Rhone lately? A couple of standout wines for me this year have included the 1978 Vieux Telegraphe CNDP Rouge and the 1976 Chateau Rayas CNDP Rouge. Both interesting for multiple reasons. The 78 Vieux Telegraphe was the last vintage from Henri Brunier, in the old facility, and the stem content was much higher than you would find in the wines produced from Vieux Telegraphe today. For me, this was more akin to something I might expect from Henri Bonneau. Interesting to try basically the same terroir through a different lens. Certainly, it had held up well.

In the case of the 76 Chateau Rayas Rouge, this was from before Jacques Reynaud moved the wine to 100% Grenache, and it was almost startling to sense a bit of Mourvedre in a Rayas red. This was also a transition year, and either the last bottling of Jacques' father or Jacques' first bottling, depending on when the wine was put in bottle. J. Reynaud was listed on the label. It hadn't held up nearly as well as the 78 VT, but a very interesting foray into a kind of Rayas that you can't find produced anymore.

What do you like from the Southern Rhone?
 
Interesting that you like them that old. In my experience they tend to fall apart.

My gold standards for the southern Rhône are Charvin in Châteauneuf-du-Pape—a dinner earlier this year with the winemaker and some vintages from 2000 on was compelling—and Richaud in Cairanne. Both are consistently fantastic and are also sentimental favorites.

Drinking these in Avignon is fun.
 
Oh, and Eric Texier's white Châteauneuf-du-Pape, always. I like that he swings between Bourboulenc and Clairette depending on the year, and how that colors it.
 
The only one this rarified I have had recently was a 78 Beaucastel, a wine that never blossomed but that seems as if it will never die. I envy you the chancw to drink those two.

CdPs I drink the most frequently are Charvin, Ferrand, Pegau, Eddie Feraud, Mourre de Tendre, Bois de Boursan and Marcoux, probably. Beaucastel used to be on that list until they, alas, cleaned up their act. If I had been a lawyer or a banker, Rayas certainly would have been.
 
Gosh, I hardly ever drink S Rhone wines anymore. When I was exploring the wine world -- with my glass -- I used to drink Pegau and Mont-Olivet, Goubert and Saint-Cosme, Saint-Anne, as well as a smattering of other makers both big and small.

But now I own only a very few bottles of Chateauneuf-du-Pape and the only Cotes-du-Rhone I own is made by Texier Père. I think I tend to spend my dollars on wines with more acidity. Certainly, at the low end, I can buy Loire or Valle d'Aosta as cheaply as Cotes-du-Rhone without risking quite so much variation in quality.

It doesn't help matters, of course, that I am friends with the No-Grenache Vortex himself so not too many S Rhone wines are opened in my presence, either.
 
I remain a big Beaucastel fan.

Served the '89 Beaucastel CNdP up against the '89 Haut Brion not too long ago. The group was split for which was the favorite.

I sat with Marc Perrin at dinner a few months ago and I'm still amused at what came up. Somehow it became known that 1970 was his birth year. I spoke up and said, gee, we need to get together again as I still have some of the 1970 Beaucastel CNdP which we can share. He laughed and said he has 200 (or it might have been 300) magnums of the 1970 (NOTE: his comment was intended and accepted as totally good natured!).

Another producer that has impressed me recently is the Rotem & Mounir with their white and red wines.

. . . . Pete
 
Ah, this is my kind of thread. A perfect holiday thread. Thank you Levi, and long time no hear - welcome. Hope you're well.

I find old Chateauneuf to be one of the most comforting things possible. It's a bit like a great Manhattan.

I pretty much like anything that has gone through old school vinification - ie foudre. New oak certainly destroys it, as does manipulative techniques.

I find Chateauneuf in particular to be a standout relative to the other appellations, no surprise there. It has a exoticism that I don't see emerge in that many others.

Favorites for me are Mourre du Tendre, Bosquet des Papes (a great value), Galet des Papes, Marcoux, Mas de Bois Lauzon, Monpertuis, Pegau of course, Pierre Usseglio, Vieux Donjon prior to the change, St. Benoit grande garde, Charbonniere, de la Janasse (I love the Chaupin). I want to love Beaucastel but have never had one that didn't have brett or VA issues. I tend to like to drink them in the 10-15 year range, but that is very general, and I find older bottles can still be terrific, and rarely are disappointing. Favorite vintages for me have been 86, 88, 89, 93, 96, 98, 99, 01, and 04. I generally avoid the uber cuvees and just go for the traditions, though there are exceptions. I've had great Bois de Boursan, but also have had too many with brett/VA issues.

Outside of Chateauneuf, the best S. Rhone I've had is St. Gervais. It is such a hidden gem. I am still really sad Eric doesn't have access to Cadinnieres anymore. Domaine St. Anne is also very very special, though honestly I haven't had recent vintages - saw that Rare Wine had a blast about them recently.

Before Cayron developed major brett problems, they were one of my very favorite producers anywhere. Domaine St. Gayan is a really good old school producer, but rarely appear.

I am a Rasteau fan, it's pretty stern stuff and linear but honest. I find Cairanne to have a very fast aging curve and goes a bit too sandalwood for my taste.

I love Tavel, and think Pfifferling is making some of the most interesting roses in the world. d'Aqueria, Chante Perdrix.

But I find it a great region to explore. I buy old stuff on a whim all the time and generally like it.
 
Like Mssr. Grossman I don't buy much Southern Rhone these days. I did have a Texier CdR blanc "Adele" I believe a few months back and it was nice. I don't buy CdP to cellar or taste young anymore and don't find myself buying Southern Rhone cheapies for every day consumption. I probably still have a couple cases worth of mixed CdP from 1998-2002 that I am sitting on but once the prices went up my dollar went elsewhere.

Still generally like the wines, just chasing other shiny things.

I keep telling myself that 2017 is the year I scale back on wine purchases so maybe finances will dictate a return to CdR for QPR reasons. Sorry I cannot contribute more to the conversation.
 
I love the St. Anne wines, especially St Gervais, for the depth the Mourvedre brings, and the nerve. Chateauneuf is just too expensive any more, though I concur with Sharon on Charvin, a real eye-opener for me when I first tried it. I used to love Clos des Papes. The Sierra du Sud from 2015 seems pretty agreeable, perhaps a bit slurpy at the moment.
 
I agree with much of what's been written here. I still buy Charvin and Pegau for its rusticity, though I redtrict myself to "off" years. I still buy VT, too, and I have quite the back catalogue of Beaucastel to draw upon. I'm currently working through my late '90s/early aughties vintages.

Mark Lipton
 
After Brad's provocative comment about the '95 Rhone CNdPs in general, I decided to pull a Beaucastel '95.

EXCEPT, I looked at my notes wrong and directed myself to the 2005 bin so decided to just go with it instead.

The Beaucastel CNdP '05 is a lucious wine. As fine as it is now, it is still definitely on the upswing so patience will be well-served. A delicious pairing tonight with the filet of beef, pureed parsnips, and mozzarella mushrooms, then pecan pie cookies.

. . . . . Pete
 
I'm with BJ on 95, a wildly overrated vintage. Some have been nice. The Clos des Papes, the VT and VD both have provided pleasure. And even Pegau has become OK in a restrained, austere, grande dame sort of way. But I can't think of a 95 to which I didn't prefer the same wineries 94 in cases where I tasted both.
 
I opened a 1998 Vieux Telegraph about a week ago, which had fallen apart. I haven't had much luck with older CNdP, quite possibly due to less-than-stellar storage at the store where I was buying them.

On the positive side, I've consistently enjoyed my small stash of 1998-2001 Gigondas from Font Sane, and I've had some delightful suitcase imported 1998-2001 Chante Perdrix from CNdP. I think both of those are now gone from my cellar.
 
originally posted by BJ:
I also wanted to mention I've never had a 95 CNP that I loved. Liked, yes, loved, no.
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Whereas the 1995 Clos des Papes is one of the very few CNPs I've felt considerable affection for.
 
originally posted by John M:
I opened a 1998 Vieux Telegraph about a week ago, which had fallen apart. I haven't had much luck with older CNdP, quite possibly due to less-than-stellar storage at the store where I was buying them.

On the positive side, I've consistently enjoyed my small stash of 1998-2001 Gigondas from Font Sane, and I've had some delightful suitcase imported 1998-2001 Chante Perdrix from CNdP. I think both of those are now gone from my cellar.
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This happened to me with my last bottle of 98 VT this week. On the other hand, in the past couple of years, I have had VT from 88 and 90 that have both been wonderful. A lot of 98 wines have given out early. Others are still doing just fine, but that was not the most ageable of years.
 
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