Impressions

originally posted by Florida Jim:
"I understand your points perfectly. I also understand that someone reading through this thread and curious to try something from the Valtellina might possibly head off on what I think of personally as a less rewarding path, and that I provided a sign post in the opposite direction. And I did that because I have strong feelings on the matter. Also having visited the Valtellina twice now, and having drunk very many of the wines, going back several decades.

Jim did, if you scroll back, call the Ar. Pe. Pe. "god awful", which is perhaps open to different interpretations than "this was possibly a flawed bottle"."

Levi,
Could you suggest bottlings from Ar. Pe. Pe. for me to try?
Please, keep in mind my wine budget is limited.
Also, suggestions on who in this country is selling them - I'll do a little looking but I suspect you know a few.
Thanks, Jim
Click to expand...

Jim, I have some 1999 and 2001 Ar.Pe.Pe. Riservas. Next time you're in northern California, let's organize an offline in the East Bay and we can open them.
 
If you visit the Valtellina, you may in fact notice that local pensioners and visiting European tourists are both significant market segments for the wines. ...
Click to expand...

I'll bet there are a lot of wines being made specifically for us geeks as well. As long as wine is for sale, there will be markets to cater to people's whims.
 
"Jim, I have some 1999 and 2001 Ar.Pe.Pe. Riservas. Next time you're in northern California, let's organize an offline in the East Bay and we can open them."

I would enjoy that.
I should be back in Sonoma in June - perhaps sometimes toward the middle of June?
I hear that The Wolf (where Baywolf used to be) is open now and the front porch still has seating.
Best, Jim
 
originally posted by MarkS:
If you visit the Valtellina, you may in fact notice that local pensioners and visiting European tourists are both significant market segments for the wines. ...
Click to expand...

I'll bet there are a lot of wines being made specifically for us geeks as well. As long as wine is for sale, there will be markets to cater to people's whims.
Click to expand...

Thank you, I hadn't understood how capitalism works until this moment.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by MarkS:
If you visit the Valtellina, you may in fact notice that local pensioners and visiting European tourists are both significant market segments for the wines. ...
Click to expand...

I'll bet there are a lot of wines being made specifically for us geeks as well. As long as wine is for sale, there will be markets to cater to people's whims.
Click to expand...

Thank you, I hadn't understood how capitalism works until this moment.
Click to expand...

Levi, are you this fun in person, too?

Regardless of how you feel about the style, there are plenty of drinkers that like pure expressions of Nebbiolo that can also appreciate Sforzato. And I'm not sure what you mean by Fay wines as point fodder. ArPePe get their fair share of points and bicchieri. A different production philosophy doesn't necessarily mean a quest for points.

Last time I checked I didn't see merchant shelves and restaurant lists full of Valtellina. The explorer will easily find his way to ArPePe and they likely won't need your smearing of Fay to get there. If a curious drinker writes off the region based on what you consider a lame wine, who cares? They wouldn't have been that curious to begin with and Valtellina is not going to have a crisis of unsold wine. But I suspect most on this board would recognize Sandro Fay's wines for what they are, not world class but well-made and expressive if somewhat stylized. Certainly worthy of a place in the market.
 
originally posted by Todd Abrams:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by MarkS:
If you visit the Valtellina, you may in fact notice that local pensioners and visiting European tourists are both significant market segments for the wines. ...
Click to expand...

I'll bet there are a lot of wines being made specifically for us geeks as well. As long as wine is for sale, there will be markets to cater to people's whims.
Click to expand...

Thank you, I hadn't understood how capitalism works until this moment.
Click to expand...

Levi, are you this fun in person, too?

Regardless of how you feel about the style, there are plenty of drinkers that like pure expressions of Nebbiolo that can also appreciate Sforzato. And I'm not sure what you mean by Fay wines as point fodder. ArPePe get their fair share of points and bicchieri. A different production philosophy doesn't necessarily mean a quest for points.

Last time I checked I didn't see merchant shelves and restaurant lists full of Valtellina. The explorer will easily find his way to ArPePe and they likely won't need your smearing of Fay to get there. If a curious drinker writes off the region based on what you consider a lame wine, who cares? They wouldn't have been that curious to begin with and Valtellina is not going to have a crisis of unsold wine. But I suspect most on this board would recognize Sandro Fay's wines for what they are, not world class but well-made and expressive if somewhat stylized. Certainly worthy of a place in the market.
Click to expand...

Well, Todd. Since you asked, I think that wine can be a part of a cultural identity of a place, and if the supposedly "well-made" and stylized replaces what is part of the fabric of the place, it becomes a fabricated pastiche of a place designed to fit into a market, not a real identity connected to any sort of location or time. That some people understand this has meant a resurgence in interest in wines like those of Ar. Pe. Pe., but it is very recent. Wines like those from Fay were attempts to fit into a points universe. I would prefer my wine to be a cultural representation. As I have said in a couple of places, I was expressing my opinion and preference, something you have also done, but not with that proviso. To your cynical "who cares?" question, I do. Certainly I care, and quite a bit, as I see once admired wineries like Triacca, whose wines expressed a part of that cultural identity and heritage of the Valtellina, changed track to be something more palatable to the uncaring, the lovers of the stylized, those who might follow points but don't see the point. I am perfectly aware that taste does matter, and your sense of fun seems rather cynical to me.
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:

Levi,
Could you suggest bottlings from Ar. Pe. Pe. for me to try?
Please, keep in mind my wine budget is limited.
Also, suggestions on who in this country is selling them - I'll do a little looking but I suspect you know a few.
Thanks, Jim
Click to expand...

Jim, I would suggest saving up for the Sassella Rocce Rosse Riserva or the Sassella Vigna Regina Riserva, to see what all the fuss is about. The Grumello cru is a more approachable cru, in terms of the resulting wines, but Sassella is the more refined cru, capable of longer aging in my estimation. The Rocce Rosse and Vigna Regina see aging in a mix of acacia, chestnut, and oak, the other Sassella that they make generally does not.
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
Bill, sounds good.

Levi, "capable of longer aging" - what kind of range might that be?

Best, Jim
Click to expand...

They release those (Gran) Riservas when they think they are starting to drink, so that is the early pole. The other pole seems about 40 years out. I have had the 1960s wines from Arturo Pelizzatti Perego ("Ar. Pe. Pe." before it was that), and you can find hits in among those. Some misses too.

Armando Cordero was vinifying at Negri in the 1970s. I haven't heard any complaints about those wines.

A wine is a wine, and each is different, but my gut tells me a really good Sassella is a 40 year proposition if you want it to be.
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
"Jim, I have some 1999 and 2001 Ar.Pe.Pe. Riservas. Next time you're in northern California, let's organize an offline in the East Bay and we can open them."

I would enjoy that.
I should be back in Sonoma in June - perhaps sometimes toward the middle of June?
I hear that The Wolf (where Baywolf used to be) is open now and the front porch still has seating.
Best, Jim
Click to expand...

Gathering with Steve Edmunds to drink 92, 93, 94 Durell at The Wolf next weekend. Excited!
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by Karen Goetz:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by Todd Abrams:
What do you mean when you say better?
Click to expand...

I mean, in my personal opinion, Fay is lame wine, and stylized point fodder polished over for people who don't like Nebbiolo, grandmothers who can't taste anymore, and tourists, while Ar. Pe. Pe. is one of the real gems of the region, capable of true greatness.

If I am beating around the bush too much in my explanation, let me know and I'll try to be more clear.

Having said that, it is true that going around the Valtellina talking with producers, I found more producers who admired Fay than admired Ar. Pe. Pe. But it is also true that if you go around Santorini, you don't find other producers saying how wonderful Canava Roussos is, and I believe it truly is wonderful.
Click to expand...

Grandmothers who can't taste anymore is more than a bit lame! Update to the next century, please.
Click to expand...

If you visit the Valtellina, you may in fact notice that local pensioners and visiting European tourists are both significant market segments for the wines. For example, I spoke with one producer who specifically makes Sforzato for the tourists who often request it, while he himself does not care for the category. And as in the Alto Piemonte, there is an aging local population in the Valtellina that drinks a lot of wine per capita. I assume that you are unaware of this, but maybe not. Anyway, I was in the Valtellina last year, which I believe is safely within this century.
Click to expand...

Your visit may have been to Valtellina in the last century but your perspective is antediluvian.
Usually I like your writing about wines. It is your reference to "Grandmothers", you dope, that I am suggesting is Old School in the (perhaps on your part ignorant, blasé, or unintentionally pejorative) worst sense of the word. DUH. Surely you jest in discriminating so sloppily about who is "...the significant market segments for the wines." Are these markets that offend you so much composed of waves of old women indiscriminately buying wines for their incapacitated husbands, really? Wouldn't it be awful if their tastebuds were significantly superior to your own? (Joke). You know of course about the relative superiority of women's palates... such a generalization, shocking, I know.
I guess I'm disappointed by your generalizations, given your wonderful experience with wines and wine regions.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by Florida Jim:

Levi,
Could you suggest bottlings from Ar. Pe. Pe. for me to try?
Please, keep in mind my wine budget is limited.
Also, suggestions on who in this country is selling them - I'll do a little looking but I suspect you know a few.
Thanks, Jim
Click to expand...

Jim, I would suggest saving up for the Sassella Rocce Rosse Riserva or the Sassella Vigna Regina Riserva, to see what all the fuss is about. The Grumello cru is a more approachable cru, in terms of the resulting wines, but Sassella is the more refined cru, capable of longer aging in my estimation. The Rocce Rosse and Vigna Regina see aging in a mix of acacia, chestnut, and oak, the other Sassella that they make generally does not.
Click to expand...

Levi, these suggestions are very useful, thank you.

Jim, from reading your notes over the years, I think you would enjoy the Ar Pe Pe Rosso.
It's an elegant and very digestible version of Nebbiolo that drinks well early and is their most affordable wine.
 
originally posted by Jim Hanlon:
originally posted by Florida Jim:
"Jim, I have some 1999 and 2001 Ar.Pe.Pe. Riservas. Next time you're in northern California, let's organize an offline in the East Bay and we can open them."

I would enjoy that.
I should be back in Sonoma in June - perhaps sometimes toward the middle of June?
I hear that The Wolf (where Baywolf used to be) is open now and the front porch still has seating.
Best, Jim
Click to expand...

Gathering with Steve Edmunds to drink 92, 93, 94 Durell at The Wolf next weekend. Excited!
Click to expand...

How is The Wolf, Jim? I envy you those wines.

Mark Lipton
 
Jim, from reading your notes over the years, I think you would enjoy the Ar Pe Pe Rosso.
It's an elegant and very digestible version of Nebbiolo that drinks well early and is their most affordable wine.
Click to expand...

I'll second that emotion.
 
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by Jim Hanlon:
originally posted by Florida Jim:
"Jim, I have some 1999 and 2001 Ar.Pe.Pe. Riservas. Next time you're in northern California, let's organize an offline in the East Bay and we can open them."

I would enjoy that.
I should be back in Sonoma in June - perhaps sometimes toward the middle of June?
I hear that The Wolf (where Baywolf used to be) is open now and the front porch still has seating.
Best, Jim
Click to expand...

Gathering with Steve Edmunds to drink 92, 93, 94 Durell at The Wolf next weekend. Excited!
Click to expand...

How is The Wolf, Jim? I envy you those wines.

Mark Lipton
Click to expand...

I think this will be the first visit for most, if not, everyone. They haven't been open even a month yet. I'm looking forward to trying it (and the wines, too!).
 
originally posted by Larry Stein:
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by Jim Hanlon:
originally posted by Florida Jim:
"Jim, I have some 1999 and 2001 Ar.Pe.Pe. Riservas. Next time you're in northern California, let's organize an offline in the East Bay and we can open them."

I would enjoy that.
I should be back in Sonoma in June - perhaps sometimes toward the middle of June?
I hear that The Wolf (where Baywolf used to be) is open now and the front porch still has seating.
Best, Jim
Click to expand...

Gathering with Steve Edmunds to drink 92, 93, 94 Durell at The Wolf next weekend. Excited!
Click to expand...

How is The Wolf, Jim? I envy you those wines.

Mark Lipton
Click to expand...

I think this will be the first visit for most, if not, everyone. They haven't been open even a month yet. I'm looking forward to trying it (and the wines, too!).
Click to expand...

Thanks, Larry. That's big of you considering the dent that I put into you Lenoir allocation. I have many fond memories of the Bay Wolf, especially since several friends worked in the kitchen there.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by Karen Goetz:
DUH
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by Karen Goetz:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by Todd Abrams:
What do you mean when you say better?
Click to expand...

I mean, in my personal opinion, Fay is lame wine, and stylized point fodder polished over for people who don't like Nebbiolo, grandmothers who can't taste anymore, and tourists, while Ar. Pe. Pe. is one of the real gems of the region, capable of true greatness.

If I am beating around the bush too much in my explanation, let me know and I'll try to be more clear.

Having said that, it is true that going around the Valtellina talking with producers, I found more producers who admired Fay than admired Ar. Pe. Pe. But it is also true that if you go around Santorini, you don't find other producers saying how wonderful Canava Roussos is, and I believe it truly is wonderful.
Click to expand...

Grandmothers who can't taste anymore is more than a bit lame! Update to the next century, please.
Click to expand...

If you visit the Valtellina, you may in fact notice that local pensioners and visiting European tourists are both significant market segments for the wines. For example, I spoke with one producer who specifically makes Sforzato for the tourists who often request it, while he himself does not care for the category. And as in the Alto Piemonte, there is an aging local population in the Valtellina that drinks a lot of wine per capita. I assume that you are unaware of this, but maybe not. Anyway, I was in the Valtellina last year, which I believe is safely within this century.
Click to expand...

Your visit may have been to Valtellina in the last century but your perspective is antediluvian.
Usually I like your writing about wines. It is your reference to "Grandmothers", you dope, that I am suggesting is Old School in the (perhaps on your part ignorant, blasé, or unintentionally pejorative) worst sense of the word. DUH. Surely you jest in discriminating so sloppily about who is "...the significant market segments for the wines." Are these markets that offend you so much composed of waves of old women indiscriminately buying wines for their incapacitated husbands, really? Wouldn't it be awful if their tastebuds were significantly superior to your own? (Joke). You know of course about the relative superiority of women's palates... such a generalization, shocking, I know.
I guess I'm disappointed by your generalizations, given your wonderful experience with wines and wine regions.
Click to expand...

Karen,

Are you thinking that perhaps grandmothers aren't drinking wine anymore, or that no one should speak of them as a market, or that tasting acuity doesn't decline with age? Or perhaps some combination of these toughts?

At any rate feel free to take your supposed rage elsewhere. What I said is perfectly accurate and defensible.

My wonderful experience with wine and wine regions is something I have earned through work and persistence. I didn't get it by trying to censor people's speech, either (DUH!).
 
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