Is a CWD possible regarding Bordeaux?

M

Marc D

Marc Davis
I am not a huge Bordeaux fan and don't buy new vintages very much any more, but I do enjoy the wines on occasion. Last night for Xmas dinner my wife and I drank a bottle of the 1994 Pichon Lalande, with a standing rib roast and the trimmings. It was what I think of as a classic Pauillac, with all the usual descriptors applying. Very refreshing at 12.5%, with medium weight and good acidity. It was still on the young side, but open and drinking well. It was a splurge when I bought it 3 years ago (maybe $70), but not outlandish compared to recent prices.

It made me wonder, when did all the high tech cellar interventions start in Bordeaux? It had to be before 1994, but I don't follow it that closely to know this. The wine didn't seem overtly manipulated that I could tell. Maybe I liked it so much because the year wasn't prone to over ripe wines. Maybe it is Pichon Lalande and they did a good job with the 1994, but I am guessing that they have all the latest technology in their cellar also.

Any thoughts about this?
 
Hi Marc,

I strangely happened to come across your CT note just after you posted it and was jealous - Lalande is one of my favorite Bordeaux and the 94 sounded great. I have some 94 Pichon Baron and will save a bottle for some point when we're together.

I feel like my knowledge is not deep or extensive over time - but here is my take. I think it's hard to generalize. I have had plenty of recent Bordeaux that don't seem amped or spoofed (a 96 Cos Labory last night is a good example). But it does feel like there is something of a transition that happened in the late 90s when Parker really became fully ascendant in Bordeaux and when a lot of wines pretty dramatically changed style. Maybe the 2000 vintage was the watershed. That's not to say a lot wasn't happening pre 90 or even in 1982 - it's just that the Parker influence became most fully felt at tha point - it's sort of like a watershed when most had thrown in the towel and given into the relentless power of the points.

And I'm not going to sit here and Parker bash - I think there is plenty of evidence of really poor efforts in the 60s and 70s. I think the 80s in many ways were a great era - because there were better vineyard practices, sanitizing of vinification, etc. but not yet widespread spoofing. I think that's what's unfortunate for me - that things didn't just get cleaned up and professionalized but no further - more and more I feel like I'm not sure what I'm going to get when I open more recent Bordeaux vintages (not that they're ready to drink anyway) - but so many are spoofed and I am really dubious about their ability to elegantly age. In many ways, a red wine version of the premox crisis.

That said, I think there a lot of good Bordeaux out there still. But it's a lot more hit and miss.
 
It depends.

There is a very important contributer to this forum, one infinitely more qualified to judge than I am, and one who may or may not choose to remain anonymous with respect to what I am about to relate, who thinks the line of demarcation was drawn in the early to mid 1980s. But I "grew up" on the wines of the 80s, having only started drinking serious Bordeaux in 1991, and as much as I recognize the difference between the pre-80s wines and their successors, it is a difficult point of view for me to accept.

I guess it's natural to defend the era which contributed to one's own wine education as "traditional". The Collective has looked down upon the wealthy newbie of the late 1990s, ill-advised by popular wine publications and wine columns in major newspapers, for building walls of OWCs of increasingly modernized Bordeaux of that particular era in his cellar. But given my line of thinking, the newbie deserves a certain sympathy, and perhaps even understanding.

But if you are deeply confused ( as I am ) and believe that 88 lafite has more in common with the 78 than it does with the 98, then you should probably continue reading ;). I have always found very little spoof in 1994. It's not that the techniques weren't there and hadn't been put to use - they were, but the expectations built up by both the quality of and the market reaction to 1995s and 1996s were not. Some nasty stuff started showing up with great frequency, following those two vintages, in my opinion.
 
1994 pichon lalande was one of the best wines of bordeaux in an overall challenging vintage and a damn fine example of classic--even traditional--claret. check michael broadbent.
 
I am not a great Bordeaux fan, but I do get to taste plenty of Bordeaux because I am a member of a European tasting group that's mostly Bordeaux-centered. When you do taste maybe 120 wines over two days, you find many, many examples of nice non-spoofulated ones around. All these generalizations are a bit tiresome. There's more variety in the wine world than some believe. A traditional claret drinker still has much to choose from - particularly with some patience with vintages, so as to drink them following the British "ten year rule"...

That said - back to Burgundy.
 
originally posted by .sasha:
I have always found very little spoof in 1994. It's not that the techniques weren't there and hadn't been put to use - they were, but the expectations built up by both the quality of and the market reaction to 1995s and 1996s were not. Some nasty stuff started showing up with great frequency, following those two vintages, in my opinion.
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Fwiw, I disagree with you a little here as in my mind the spoof started to become noticeable on larger scale with the '94 vintage, and was particularly rampant by '97 - '98.
 
As Levi says, the '96 Lalande is very nice, too. But more surprising to me was how wonderful the '00 was because I have generally found this year too sweet, ripe and un-Claret-like yet this was a beautiful, elegant, refreshing Claret.

I "grew up" with the mid-late '90s vintages and have also found more spoof from 2000-> . But I guess I might then be a little more tolerant to spoof because I have seen few if any signs of spoof in the '80s and early '90s that I have drunk (admittedly I have drunk mainly "off-years" from the view of a certain place).

So who makes unspoofy Claret these days? I think my old favourite Haut-Bailly might have gone over to the dark side as the '04 tasted just like most other Bordeaux. One standout in the '04 tasting was Belair which seemed possibly unspoofy (at least within my reference of having been brought up in the spoofy period...). What about affordable, honest Claret? What is recommended?
 
It made me wonder, when did all the high tech cellar interventions start in Bordeaux? It had to be before 1994, but I don't follow it that closely to know this. The wine didn't seem overtly manipulated that I could tell. Maybe I liked it so much because the year wasn't prone to over ripe wines. Maybe it is Pichon Lalande and they did a good job with the 1994, but I am guessing that they have all the latest technology in their cellar also.

Any thoughts about this?
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You've touched on something that is important to the style shift in Napa as well as Bordeaux - grape ripeness. The modern "international" style of Cabernet and Merlot is not just a product of cellar manipulation but also yields, picking dates and methods, and grape-sorting. The brix levels and phenolic profiles of grapes going into many top Bordeaux and Napa reds are very different from the "olden days." Not necessarily for the better in many cases (IMHO).

FWIW I bought and drank a lot of Bordeaux when I lived on the East Coast, and have a fair amount of experience of most vintages from 1961 to 1985. My experience is fairly spotty since then. I do perceive something of a style shift in the early 80s, but it was really an evolutionary thing, with some chateaux making major changes and others only subtle or minor ones. However, I have practically no experience with classed growth Bordeaux since the 2000 vintage.
 
Some years ago I went to a big Pape Clement vertical. The wine was recognizably itself up to 1998. That vintage of the wine tasted very strange to me and it has never tasted right since. (Nor can I afford it anymore.)
 
I think of 1998 as a crossover vintage for Pape Clement. It's slightly spoofy but I still really like it. Everything after that has been overdone.

Enjoyed the 1990 Gruaud Larose and the 1982 Haut Bailly on Friday.
 
originally posted by Jay Miller:
I think of 1998 as a crossover vintage for Pape Clement. It's slightly spoofy but I still really like it. Everything after that has been overdone.
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Please don't say the 2001 is spoofy! (oh no!)

Like .sasha, I cut my teeth on 80's Bordeaux, and remember lovely examples of 1981's, 1983's and 1985's that were beautiful and never approaching overdone. I haven't had many of the 90's, and my 2000's are just coming around into drinkability. From the few 2000's and 2003's I've had, they appear riper, but I would not mistake them for California cabs, but I am sure there are ones out there that could be. I'll let the cellar be my judge. I just don't drink alot of cabernet-based wines to worry about it much.
 
When I interned at Ch. Lafite in 1989, I visited quite a few cellars and spoke with other interns and cellar workers regarding new techniques they were using in the cellar. At that time I didn't see or hear news of any techniques for concentrating wines or otherwise preparing for Parker (except of course for selecting "special barrels" for tastings). I suspect that '94 would have been just the beginning of the trend.
 
Whenever I see a thread about Bordeaux and spoof I think about one of the tasting groups I am in. For a long time it was mostly guys much older than I, who had bought all of their Bordeaux prior to 1988 (the group started in 1974 - I was invited to join in 1998). Most had stopped buying (due to full cellars) before then. Through their generosity I had the chance to cut my Bordeaux teeth on wines from the 60s, 70s and 80s.

Due to when I started this infernal hobby I had to serve wines from the '90s and '00s to them. Only once have I heard any of the older contingent complain that a wine was too fruity or too oaky or lacked acidity. what they have said most of the time is that the wines need a ton of time. If I were to use the word "spoof" they would look at me funny and not have a clue what I was talking about. These guys are not geeks, they just love wine and Bordeaux in particular. They're not rich or trendy, and have no ego invested in whether the wines are good or bad. They just like wine & have forgotten more about Bordeaux than I will ever have a chance to learn.
 
I have heard it stated that Leoville las Cases began the use of reverse osmosis back in the 1980s, but I can't put my finger one the quote (or quoter) at the moment.

I had not hit any overoaked Bordeaux until I tasted the 1998 Monbousquet. And this was close to the period when "fruity" Bordeaux showed up (although mostly in the early 2000s).
 
originally posted by David M. Bueker:
Whenever I see a thread about Bordeaux and spoof I think about one of the tasting groups I am in. For a long time it was mostly guys much older than I, who had bought all of their Bordeaux prior to 1988 (the group started in 1974 - I was invited to join in 1998). Most had stopped buying (due to full cellars) before then. Through their generosity I had the chance to cut my Bordeaux teeth on wines from the 60s, 70s and 80s.

Due to when I started this infernal hobby I had to serve wines from the '90s and '00s to them. Only once have I heard any of the older contingent complain that a wine was too fruity or too oaky or lacked acidity. what they have said most of the time is that the wines need a ton of time. If I were to use the word "spoof" they would look at me funny and not have a clue what I was talking about. These guys are not geeks, they just love wine and Bordeaux in particular. They're not rich or trendy, and have no ego invested in whether the wines are good or bad. They just like wine & have forgotten more about Bordeaux than I will ever have a chance to learn.
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So your position is that the winemaking is the same, and it's just a question of time?

Interesting.
 
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