XP: Written Word/English Language&Reading Material

It would be incorrect usage to use oration as praise of rhetorical skill. It refers to a speech. Oratory can be used as praise. These days, both words are frequently used pejoratively to describe either an overinflated rhetoric or an overinflated speech. Orotund does not actually have the same etymology, but it gets you to where oration has gone.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg: These days, both words are frequently used pejoratively to describe either an overinflated rhetoric or an overinflated speech.

Thanks, it sounds like except for being redundant I did a fair job of word selection as my intent was to smilingly vacillate between describing the wine description as praise-worthy and immoderate.

"Orotund" might have been too harsh.

. . . . . Pete
 
Just to resurrect a dispute, I append this passage in today's NY Times by John McWhorter on linguistic laissez-faire. I am not fond of McWhorter's political contributions, but, here, writing as the linguist he is, he exhibits a laudable realism:

The crowning example, motivating my laissez-faire take on quotation marks, is the Oxford comma, also known by its more quotidian moniker, the serial comma. You know: “Philadelphia, Berkeley, and New York” rather than “Philadelphia, Berkeley and New York.”

Yes, failing to use it can create confusion now and then. Suppose union rules deny you, a delivery driver, overtime pay for “the canning, processing, preserving, freezing, drying, marketing, storing, packing for shipment or distribution of” such things as agricultural produce. Are you denied overtime pay for packing things for shipping and distribution, but eligible for overtime pay for just distribution? Only a comma after “shipment” could tell us definitively.

The crowning example, motivating my laissez-faire take on quotation marks, is the Oxford comma, also known by its more quotidian moniker, the serial comma. You know: “Philadelphia, Berkeley, and New York” rather than “Philadelphia, Berkeley and New York.”

Yes, failing to use it can create confusion now and then. Suppose union rules deny you, a delivery driver, overtime pay for “the canning, processing, preserving, freezing, drying, marketing, storing, packing for shipment or distribution of” such things as agricultural produce. Are you denied overtime pay for packing things for shipping and distribution, but eligible for overtime pay for just distribution? Only a comma after “shipment” could tell us definitively.

There was a case that hinged on just this, and the drivers won their demand to be paid for distribution alone. But at times, the Oxford comma can confuse matters. The Chicago Manual of Style’s online FAQs addresses the scenario of a phrase that goes something along the lines of “To my mother, Mother Teresa, and the Pope.” Is Mother Teresa, in that instance, your mother? Most of the time, context makes it clear what is meant, which is why the imposition of the Oxford comma varies so randomly. This newspaper’s stylebook doesn’t call for it in most cases. An especially influential guide in favor is Strunk and White’s “The Elements of Style,” but to my recollection that book needlessly steers us away from things like using “chair” as a verb and toward saying things like “It is I.”

It’s difficult to avoid the conclusion that the Oxford comma is essentially a matter of what you consider to be ducks in a suitable row. Certainly, one could use it where clarity demands it, for instance, when the word “and” appears more than once in a series — when the dessert choices are “candy, cookies, and cake and ice cream” — but those who seem to insist on using an Oxford comma in the 99 percent of cases in which it isn’t necessary almost ask for transgression. The quest to get everyone to write “Philadelphia, Berkeley, and New York” is as Sisyphean as seeking for everyone to check their cars’ oil level every month.

Are we not rather too easily given to rules allowing us to look down on other people? Being unreachably persnickety about such things is, in some ways, one of the last openly permissible prejudices, a kind of classism that’s frequently given a pass. (BuzzFeed’s 2019 listicle mocking emphatic quotation marks was almost too predictable.)
 
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
Yet another half-hearted defense of not using the Oxford comma. Ho hum.

You may not buy it, but I would call it pretty whole-hearted. My defense earlier was half-hearted. McWhorter does not do things by halfs, for good or ill.
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
Yet another half-hearted defense of not using the Oxford comma. Ho hum.
It's not half-hearted.

It's flimsy.

You are right. There is nothing worse than whole-hearted and flimsy. Reminds me of both US national politics and the press lately.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Pete,

Are you auditioning to be board anti-vaxxer?

Who cares?

On January 15th, Pete used a split infinitive. In this thread, of all places.

Let us have a little perspective.
 
Split infinitives don’t bother me. They make sense almost by definition by putting the adverb where it belongs to convey the correct meaning, which can be ambiguous otherwise.
 
Virtually no publishing house (except, of course, OUP, from which the serial comma receives its more high falutin name) or journal requires serial commas, except where they will remove an ambiguity (well, as you might expect, the New Yorker requires it). Good copy editors would no doubt remove one that created an ambiguity,as well, as some uses of it do. You guys are fighting a battle that has long been lost. And I should know since I still campaign for the proper use of "begs the question," which most people don't even understand.
 
Or how about "lay low" becoming the frequent (standard?) usage rather than "lie low". As someone somewhere asked, "Who is low?"

. . . . . Pete
 
originally posted by Peter Creasey:

Or how about "lay low" becoming the frequent (standard?) usage rather than "lie low". As someone somewhere asked, "Who is low?"

. . . . . Pete

"Lay" is the past tense of "lie," as well as the present tense of "lay," of course. Thus, if the sentence, he lay low, describes an action in the past, as it usually does, it is actually correct.
 
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
Split infinitives don’t bother me. They make sense almost by definition by putting the adverb where it belongs to convey the correct meaning, which can be ambiguous otherwise.

a dear friend of mine just published the following

"The cellars are deep enough to historically not get very warm in the summer"

You are welcome to propose a rule that would prevent misuse and abuse, and would limit it to cases where it "makes sense almost by definition."

We've been trying that with gun ownership.

There is more to it though. English may not be my native language when it comes to suitability for poetry due to a wealth of rhyming possibilities and symmetrical structures, but it ain't half bad. This thing that you say makes sense just turns it ugly, at least to my highly trained musical ear.
 
Jonathan, in the case you cite, wouldn't it be "he laid low" rather than "he lay low"?

Regardless, what's become common is to use "lay" for present and future tense e.g. "He plans to lay low" or "He lays low".

. . . . . Pete
 
originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
Split infinitives don’t bother me. They make sense almost by definition by putting the adverb where it belongs to convey the correct meaning, which can be ambiguous otherwise.

a dear friend of mine just published the following

"The cellars are deep enough to historically not get very warm in the summer"

You are welcome to propose a rule that would prevent misuse and abuse, and would limit it to cases where it "makes sense almost by definition."

We've been trying that with gun ownership.

There is more to it though. English may not be my native language when it comes to suitability for poetry due to a wealth of rhyming possibilities and symmetrical structures, but it ain't half bad. This thing that you say makes sense just turns it ugly, at least to my highly trained musical ear.

That’s a terrible sentence with or without the adverb. I would never have published such a sentence or had it survive editing. Please tell me JG didn’t publish this sentence.

A better sentence:

Because the cellar is deep enough, historically it remains relatively cool in the summer.

Or more awkward to my ear but still better than the original.

Because the cellar is deep enough, historically it does not get very warm in the summer.
 
originally posted by Peter Creasey:

Jonathan, in the case you cite, wouldn't it be "he laid low" rather than "he lay low"?

Regardless, what's become common is to use "lay" for present and future tense e.g. "He plans to lay low" or "He lays low".

. . . . . Pete

No! "Lay" is the past tense of "lie." "Laid is the past tense of "lay," in both meanings of the word. You have only "laid" low in the past tense if you are having sex with someone named "Low."

To my ear, one "lies low" or one "lay low" as past and present tense, though I find that both "lay low" and "lie low" are accepted by online references as the present tense.
 
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
Split infinitives don’t bother me. They make sense almost by definition by putting the adverb where it belongs to convey the correct meaning, which can be ambiguous otherwise.

a dear friend of mine just published the following

"The cellars are deep enough to historically not get very warm in the summer"

You are welcome to propose a rule that would prevent misuse and abuse, and would limit it to cases where it "makes sense almost by definition."

We've been trying that with gun ownership.

There is more to it though. English may not be my native language when it comes to suitability for poetry due to a wealth of rhyming possibilities and symmetrical structures, but it ain't half bad. This thing that you say makes sense just turns it ugly, at least to my highly trained musical ear.

That’s a terrible sentence with or without the adverb. I would never have published such a sentence or had it survive editing. Please tell me JG didn’t publish this sentence.

A better sentence:

Because the cellar is deep enough, historically it remains relatively cool in the summer.

Or more awkward to my ear but still better than the original.

Because the cellar is deep enough, historically it does not get very warm in the summer.

in the interest of cutting out unnecessary words, trash the word 'historical' from both sentences. and for whatever temperatures are experienced in the future, the historical record will be irrelevant. the temperature will be driven by the physics of heat transfer.
 
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