A Saumur Champigny worthy of mention

[robert ames]

and all would be for naught!!

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

The Sherriff of Nottingham will be knocking on both your doors in the middle of the night.

 

[robert ames]

because i'm naughty?

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

originally posted by MLipton:
Those pesky little microbesO., where this discussion gets fraught is with the need for yeast to do the fermentation. Studies have shown that even in the most noninterventionist cellars, the ecosystem of yeasts that perform the fermentation are complex and often involve commercial yeasts that have colonized the winery. So, how does this affect the concept of terroir? Are there site-specific yeast populations? Do they respect the boundaries of e.g. the Touraine? I don't know if anyone knows the answer to this, but certainly we can't ignore the influence of the yeast on shaping the character of the wine.

Microbial Mark Lipton

I was thinking the other day about the role microbes play in flavoring bread, especially sourdough, and how the length of the rising item palpably affects flavor, because of the increased accumulation of bacterial metabolic by-products. I wondered if there is any analogy in winemaking.

I've read wine makers who say they chaptalize slightly, not to increase abv, but to lengthen the fermentation process. This practice calls to mind the baker's technique of lengthening rising times, by cooling dough temperatures, to prolong the period of microbial activity, thereby enhancing the flavor of the bread. It seems plausible that microbial activity management could palpably affect wine in the flavor dimensions of nuance, complexity, and depth.

It also seems plausible that different strains of yeast would either exclude each other competitively, or converge adaptively, over a period of several generations, based on the specific environmental conditions of any given location. Unless a purified, commercial strain is re-itroduced year after year, therefore, it's likely that either ancient location-specific strains, or reasonable facsimiles thereof, would assert themselves in the vinification process.

 

[Yixin]

I'm sure Jeff could chime in properly, but yeast populations differ significantly at various temperatures for bread (and for wine). That's also different from feeding the dough (i.e. a long build), which is closer to chaptalisation (but not really, since one is adding simple sugar to must in the instance of wine).

But drinking a CRB SB #2 has got me nostalgic for when the lodestars shone bright and clear.

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

Yes, there are differences. The bread dough microbial community comprises non-yeast members, I've read, which are favored, relative to the yeast, at cooler temperatures, and thus help flavor the bread over the period of a long rise.

Don't know if there's any microbial analogy in vinification. However, it was the practice of lightly chaptalizing with the express intent of lengthening fermentation time, which I've heard espoused by at least two respected winemakers, that got me speculating.

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Yes, there are differences. The bread dough microbial community comprises non-yeast members, I've read, which are favored, relative to the yeast, at cooler temperatures, and thus help flavor the bread over the period of a long rise.

Don't know if there's any microbial analogy in vinification. However, it was the practice of lightly chaptalizing with the express intent of lengthening fermentation time, which I've heard espoused by at least two respected winemakers, that got me speculating.

Sourdough is a symbiotic co-culture of lactobacillus with various acid-tolerant wild yeasts. The only analogy to wine-making yeasts is that various yeast strains have different alcohol tolerances and nutrient requirements, so during a fermentation various yeast populations will rise and fall at various times. When I have a few moments, I'll try to unearth an earlier thread on this very topic.

Mark Lipton

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Yes, there are differences. The bread dough microbial community comprises non-yeast members, I've read, which are favored, relative to the yeast, at cooler temperatures, and thus help flavor the bread over the period of a long rise.

Don't know if there's any microbial analogy in vinification. However, it was the practice of lightly chaptalizing with the express intent of lengthening fermentation time, which I've heard espoused by at least two respected winemakers, that got me speculating.

Sourdough is a symbiotic co-culture of lactobacillus with various acid-tolerant wild yeasts. The only analogy to wine-making yeasts is that various yeast strains have different alcohol tolerances and nutrient requirements, so during a fermentation various yeast populations will rise and fall at various times. When I have a few moments, I'll try to unearth an earlier thread on this very topic.

Mark Lipton

For the purpose of whether storebought yeast strains will permanently endure once used if one goes back to using environmentally endemic strains, that is probably analogy enough. As I have said, I have found that the local yeast will overcome the storebought stuff. In Provence, where the local strains are quite fierce, it happens in about a minute and a half. In DC, where local strains are more placid, it may take two or three proofings, but it happens. I'm sure if someone made snakehead fish like packaged yeast, the packaged yeast would prevail and maybe there are some strains of manufactured wine yeast that are like that. But it's not my experience with bread.

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

originally posted by MLipton:

Sourdough is a symbiotic co-culture of lactobacillus with various acid-tolerant wild yeasts. The only analogy to wine-making yeasts is that various yeast strains have different alcohol tolerances and nutrient requirements, so during a fermentation various yeast populations will rise and fall at various times. When I have a few moments, I'll try to unearth an earlier thread on this very topic.

Mark Lipton

I'd imagined there might be an earlier thread on this topic and await ritual castigation for having overlooked it.

I wonder it the progression of different yeast stains active over a prolonged fermentation might not have an effect that is functionally - if not precisely - analogous to that of the aforementioned symbiotic microbial community in bread dough, by imparting additional flavor nuances to the embryo wine.

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

For the purpose of whether storebought yeast strains will permanently endure once used if one goes back to using environmentally endemic strains, that is probably analogy enough. As I have said, I have found that the local yeast will overcome the storebought stuff. In Provence, where the local strains are quite fierce, it happens in about a minute and a half. In DC, where local strains are more placid, it may take two or three proofings, but it happens. I'm sure if someone made snakehead fish like packaged yeast, the packaged yeast would prevail and maybe there are some strains of manufactured wine yeast that are like that. But it's not my experience with bread.

The idea of invasive alien yeast species is attractive.

The thought that crosses my mind, however, is that yeast must be capable of mutation at a rate so much more rapid than that of fish (because of their asexual reproduction and short individual life-spans), that even an introduced, alien strain with sufficient competitive advantage to exclude the endemic one would so rapidly adapt in other aspects to local environmental conditions that it might be difficult to say whether the endemic species had prevailed, or the alien one 'converged' to fill the same niche.

Sensei Mark?

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

For the purpose of whether storebought yeast strains will permanently endure once used if one goes back to using environmentally endemic strains, that is probably analogy enough. As I have said, I have found that the local yeast will overcome the storebought stuff. In Provence, where the local strains are quite fierce, it happens in about a minute and a half. In DC, where local strains are more placid, it may take two or three proofings, but it happens. I'm sure if someone made snakehead fish like packaged yeast, the packaged yeast would prevail and maybe there are some strains of manufactured wine yeast that are like that. But it's not my experience with bread.

The idea of invasive alien yeast species is attractive.

The thought that crosses my mind, however, is that yeast must be capable of mutation at a rate so much more rapid than that of fish (because of their asexual reproduction and short individual life-spans), that even an introduced, alien strain with sufficient competitive advantage to exclude the endemic one would so rapidly adapt in other aspects to local environmental conditions that it might be difficult to say whether the endemic species had prevailed, or the alien one 'converged' to fill the same niche.

Sensei Mark?

If Mark says that that's the case, I'll accept it. But my knowledge of evolution is that no species can be immune to invasion of its environmental niche. If it were, it would never evolve at all since the incursion of a new species is a change in the environmental niche, which is one of the prime mechanisms of change.

 

[robert ames]

jonathan, can you dumb this down for people like me?

"I'm sure if someone made snakehead fish like packaged yeast, . . ."

even if it read ". . .fish-like. . ." i would have to admit that i pretty much no closer to knowing what is being said.

thx!

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by robert ames:
jonathan, can you dumb this down for people like me?

"I'm sure if someone made snakehead fish like packaged yeast, . . ."

even if it read ". . .fish-like. . ." i would have to admit that i pretty much no closer to knowing what is being said.

thx!

Snake head fish are indigenous to Africa and Asia. As adults, they feed on other fish and even mammals since they can breath air and move on land for short periods. They were brought either by accident of intention to the Potomac area and became highly invasive because they had no natural predators and quickly, themselves, became alpha predators therefore. I could have also used the example of pigs on the Galapagos Islands, as well. There are other examples, I imagine, of invasive species doing extraordinary damage to an ecological area. That's one reason you have that question to answer on your customs form about bringing in meat or vegetables. You don't hear about the more usual cases of species that get misplaced and quickly die from lack of adaptability to a different environment.

 

[robert ames]

thanks!

so then it should be "snakehead-fish-like"?

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Yes, there are differences. The bread dough microbial community comprises non-yeast members, I've read, which are favored, relative to the yeast, at cooler temperatures, and thus help flavor the bread over the period of a long rise.

Don't know if there's any microbial analogy in vinification. However, it was the practice of lightly chaptalizing with the express intent of lengthening fermentation time, which I've heard espoused by at least two respected winemakers, that got me speculating.

Sourdough is a symbiotic co-culture of lactobacillus with various acid-tolerant wild yeasts. The only analogy to wine-making yeasts is that various yeast strains have different alcohol tolerances and nutrient requirements, so during a fermentation various yeast populations will rise and fall at various times. When I have a few moments, I'll try to unearth an earlier thread on this very topic.

Mark Lipton

Yeast as Part of Terroir (with an initial SFJoe contribution followed by a memorable back-and-forth between a typically combative fb and Otto and Prof. Loesberg)

Yeast diversity within vineyards(another contribution from SFJoe *sigh* with input from other worthies)

"There's no such thing as a wild yeast fermentation" (ignore the initial Tom Wark blather and focus instead on the links to various research articles studying yeast populations in wineries)

HTH
Mark Lipton

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

For the purpose of whether storebought yeast strains will permanently endure once used if one goes back to using environmentally endemic strains, that is probably analogy enough. As I have said, I have found that the local yeast will overcome the storebought stuff. In Provence, where the local strains are quite fierce, it happens in about a minute and a half. In DC, where local strains are more placid, it may take two or three proofings, but it happens. I'm sure if someone made snakehead fish like packaged yeast, the packaged yeast would prevail and maybe there are some strains of manufactured wine yeast that are like that. But it's not my experience with bread.

The idea of invasive alien yeast species is attractive.

The thought that crosses my mind, however, is that yeast must be capable of mutation at a rate so much more rapid than that of fish (because of their asexual reproduction and short individual life-spans), that even an introduced, alien strain with sufficient competitive advantage to exclude the endemic one would so rapidly adapt in other aspects to local environmental conditions that it might be difficult to say whether the endemic species had prevailed, or the alien one 'converged' to fill the same niche.

Sensei Mark?

[...] But my knowledge of evolution is that no species can be immune to invasion of its environmental niche [...]

Not what I meant; not, I think, what I wrote. In imagination, however, it's plausible that, in the event a competitively better-adapted strain is introduced into some local environment (itself an unlikely event), it would first competitively exclude the indigenous strain, whereupon intra-strain competition would likely steer the invading strain towards population characteristics similar in many respects to the indigenous strain, in response to the prevailing environmental conditions.

On the other hand, I'm not even sure what are the biological criteria for distinguishing yeast strains. If yeast adapt characteristics from each other by means of horizontal transfer of genetic material, as do many bacteria, then thinking about inter-strain competition may be the wrong framework altogether. Hm.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

For the purpose of whether storebought yeast strains will permanently endure once used if one goes back to using environmentally endemic strains, that is probably analogy enough. As I have said, I have found that the local yeast will overcome the storebought stuff. In Provence, where the local strains are quite fierce, it happens in about a minute and a half. In DC, where local strains are more placid, it may take two or three proofings, but it happens. I'm sure if someone made snakehead fish like packaged yeast, the packaged yeast would prevail and maybe there are some strains of manufactured wine yeast that are like that. But it's not my experience with bread.

The idea of invasive alien yeast species is attractive.

The thought that crosses my mind, however, is that yeast must be capable of mutation at a rate so much more rapid than that of fish (because of their asexual reproduction and short individual life-spans), that even an introduced, alien strain with sufficient competitive advantage to exclude the endemic one would so rapidly adapt in other aspects to local environmental conditions that it might be difficult to say whether the endemic species had prevailed, or the alien one 'converged' to fill the same niche.

Sensei Mark?

[...] But my knowledge of evolution is that no species can be immune to invasion of its environmental niche [...]

Not what I meant; not, I think, what I wrote. In imagination, however, it's plausible that, in the event a competitively better-adapted strain is introduced into some local environment (itself an unlikely event), it would first competitively exclude the indigenous strain, whereupon intra-strain competition would likely steer the invading strain towards population characteristics similar in many respects to the indigenous strain, in response to the prevailing environmental conditions.

On the other hand, I'm not even sure what are the biological criteria for distinguishing yeast strains. If yeast adapt characteristics from each other by means of horizontal transfer of genetic material, as do many bacteria, then thinking about inter-strain competition may be the wrong framework altogether. Hm.

I share your ignorance about how genetic variation and radiation work in yeast populations. But if you imagine a new variety of say lion invading some lion antelope niche, and outcompeting the old variety because of some enhanced antelope catching ability, while there is some probability of intervariety fertilization, there is also a good probability that the old variety will either be wiped out or move elsewhere to look for a new and/or separated food source, thus finding a new environmental niche.

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

For the purpose of whether storebought yeast strains will permanently endure once used if one goes back to using environmentally endemic strains, that is probably analogy enough. As I have said, I have found that the local yeast will overcome the storebought stuff. In Provence, where the local strains are quite fierce, it happens in about a minute and a half. In DC, where local strains are more placid, it may take two or three proofings, but it happens. I'm sure if someone made snakehead fish like packaged yeast, the packaged yeast would prevail and maybe there are some strains of manufactured wine yeast that are like that. But it's not my experience with bread.

The idea of invasive alien yeast species is attractive.

The thought that crosses my mind, however, is that yeast must be capable of mutation at a rate so much more rapid than that of fish (because of their asexual reproduction and short individual life-spans), that even an introduced, alien strain with sufficient competitive advantage to exclude the endemic one would so rapidly adapt in other aspects to local environmental conditions that it might be difficult to say whether the endemic species had prevailed, or the alien one 'converged' to fill the same niche.

Sensei Mark?

[...] But my knowledge of evolution is that no species can be immune to invasion of its environmental niche [...]

Not what I meant; not, I think, what I wrote. In imagination, however, it's plausible that, in the event a competitively better-adapted strain is introduced into some local environment (itself an unlikely event), it would first competitively exclude the indigenous strain, whereupon intra-strain competition would likely steer the invading strain towards population characteristics similar in many respects to the indigenous strain, in response to the prevailing environmental conditions.

On the other hand, I'm not even sure what are the biological criteria for distinguishing yeast strains. If yeast adapt characteristics from each other by means of horizontal transfer of genetic material, as do many bacteria, then thinking about inter-strain competition may be the wrong framework altogether. Hm.

The studies I cited above use DNA sequencing to distinguish yeast strains (and one points out how much more powerful a technique it is than phenotypical catagorization). Lateral transfer of genetic information is not likely to happen in yeast as they, being eukaryotic, won't have the plasmids that make it possible in bacteria.

To Jonathan's point, I expect that the native yeasts' advantage is due in part to the intervention of lactobacillus: as the pH of the environment lowers, the native yeasts gain a competitive advantage over S. cerevisiae.

Mark Lipton

 

[JBrennan]

Martin Scriblerus would have been proud.

 

[robert ames]

originally posted by robert ames:
thanks!

so then it should be "snakehead-fish-like"?

jonathan--in the spirit of pure pedantry, what do you say?

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by robert ames:

originally posted by robert ames:
thanks!

so then it should be "snakehead-fish-like"?

jonathan--in the spirit of pure pedantry, what do you say?

I guess I would say snakehead fish-like, but I would be happy to be corrected.