Slightly Corked

T

Todd Abrams

Todd Abrams
I occasionally run across a tasting note that claims a wine was "slightly corked" but drank well anyway. I understand that there may be different levels of sensitivity to TCA but can a wine that's affected at any rate actually drink well? Not in my experience (I think I may have even rankled someone on the board in a past thread with this allegation). Cork taint is cork taint. The wine goes down the drain. I don't cook with it and it doesn't go in the vinegar vat. Maybe I'm hypersensitive.

Do you drink corked wine?
 
I cannot drink it either. The cork taint gets worse the longer the wine is open to air. Sometimes the first pour the taint can be subtle but it always gets worse with time open.

When I read notes that describe very low levels of TCA “scalping” the fruit, those are the tasting notes that are confusing to me, because corked never seems subtle, it’s always obvious for me. But I’m not an expert and if the pros agree that there is a category where the TCA is not readily apparent but is there enough to cause the wine to suffer, I would defer to them on it.
 
Tainted wine does not drink well with me. I may say there is a nice wine under there somewhere but DNPIM.

I can taste scalped, usually. The taint level is low enough that the wine is merely boring instead of offensive. DNPIM.
 
originally posted by Marc D:
But I’m not an expert and if the pros agree that there is a category where the TCA is not readily apparent but is there enough to cause the wine to suffer, I would defer to them on it.
Click to expand...

No doubt that there is a category which I often refer to as "sub-threshold corked." This is particularly evident in a restaurant where you open dozens of the same wine and can learn to detect this: often less fruit, somewhat more tannic and definitely a shorter finish but no overt corky smell. Always significantly less aroma (what is called "closed" is sometimes within this category).
Although the prevalence of corked wine has somewhat diminished in more recently bottled wines, undoutedly it is still there.
 
I'm not sensitive to TCA so I can only suspect TCA taint when I have a wine that is not up to par.

Whether to pitch it is dependent a number of factors e.g. how subpar the wine is, how "dear" it is, circumstances, etc.

. . . . . Pete
 
Only with a few very dear wines have I actually attempted to drink any corked wine. As others have said, though, low levels of TCA can lead to "fruit scalping," in which the wine seems dull and devoid of fruit. Occasionally, after drinking a bit of a fruit scalped wine, the telltale mustiness of TCA will emerge (it does get worse as the bottle stays open) and then it's down the drain.

Mark Lipton
 
In theory I suppose it's possible for the taint to be slight enough the wine is still kind of OK to drink, but in practice as soon as you notice it it's like the ceiling crack you can't look away from.
 
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Marc D:
But I’m not an expert and if the pros agree that there is a category where the TCA is not readily apparent but is there enough to cause the wine to suffer, I would defer to them on it.
Click to expand...

No doubt that there is a category which I often refer to as "sub-threshold corked." This is particularly evident in a restaurant where you open dozens of the same wine and can learn to detect this: often less fruit, somewhat more tannic and definitely a shorter finish but no overt corky smell. Always significantly less aroma (what is called "closed" is sometimes within this category).
Although the prevalence of corked wine has somewhat diminished in more recently bottled wines, undoutedly it is still there.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I think the side by side comparison of multiple bottles of the same wine is likely the best way to appreciate this. With a single bottle I’m as likely to think it’s just not a great wine, or “closed”.

On a completely different topic, my wife and I are headed to Oaxaca this week. Dia de los Muertos time.
I remember vaguely that Joe wrote about mushroom expeditions in the hills around Oaxaca. Did you go on any of those trips? Any ideas of how to find a local guide for mushrooming there? We have a visit to a mescal producer lined up, and some other things, but this would be fun to explore.
 
I can't drink corked wine. Sometimes that aggravates the hell out of me, because I can taste the wine underneath and I insist on trying it again a half an hour later, in the triumph of hope over experience. Experience always wins out.

But I do cook with it. I find that bringing wine to the boil is a great equalizer. I know cooks say you should cook with wine you would drink and make Boeuf Bourguigon with a good Burgundy. That is not my experience. It's like heating olive oil for browning something. You might as well use Canola. The same with wine. Even oak soup messes, once heated make perfectly good sauteing wine.
 
Like the Professor, I cook with corked wine. I am not sure of the chemistry involved but I believe that once the wine is heated over a certain temperature you can no longer detect the corkiness.
 
I absolutely have had wines that are more corked and less corked. If I can notice the fact that they are corked at all, then I find them undrinkable and I won't drink them no matter how "good" they are supposed to be. But I also know that people have different thresholds for perceiving TCA. (My threshold is somewhere in the middle as far as I can tell - I have had experiences when I could tell a wine was corked when others could not as well as experiences when others would call a wine corked and I did not see it.) It stands to reason (as a sort of Venn diagram-type way of thinking) that if there is both (A) a range of TCA levels among wines thought of as corked and (B) a range of perception thresholds that differ depending on the person, then for at least some people there must be wines that they do not perceive as corked but which are perceived as corked by others. I suspect this may include the "fruit-scalped" category, although if we are being honest there are likely also some instances of people being blissfully unaware of anything being wrong with the wine at all.

In any case, I will admit to having consumed glasses of wine that likely fell in the fruit-scalped or closed and strangely tannic categories, which were hypothesized to be corked by others but which did not seem corked to me. I would not say they were "corked but drank well." That makes no sense to me.
 
originally posted by Cole Kendall:
Like the Professor, I cook with corked wine. I am not sure of the chemistry involved but I believe that once the wine is heated over a certain temperature you can no longer detect the corkiness.
Click to expand...

I have always shied away from doing that because I know that TCA boils at such a ridiculously high temperature (251°C). It may be reacting and thereby losing its olfactory effects, but TCA is a pretty unreactive species. The nose knows, though, as they say.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by Marc D:
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Marc D:
But I’m not an expert and if the pros agree that there is a category where the TCA is not readily apparent but is there enough to cause the wine to suffer, I would defer to them on it.
Click to expand...

No doubt that there is a category which I often refer to as "sub-threshold corked." This is particularly evident in a restaurant where you open dozens of the same wine and can learn to detect this: often less fruit, somewhat more tannic and definitely a shorter finish but no overt corky smell. Always significantly less aroma (what is called "closed" is sometimes within this category).
Although the prevalence of corked wine has somewhat diminished in more recently bottled wines, undoutedly it is still there.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I think the side by side comparison of multiple bottles of the same wine is likely the best way to appreciate this. With a single bottle I’m as likely to think it’s just not a great wine, or “closed”.

On a completely different topic, my wife and I are headed to Oaxaca this week. Dia de los Muertos time.
I remember vaguely that Joe wrote about mushroom expeditions in the hills around Oaxaca. Did you go on any of those trips? Any ideas of how to find a local guide for mushrooming there? We have a visit to a mescal producer lined up, and some other things, but this would be fun to explore.
Click to expand...

I never did go on those trips. I believe Connie Green and Patrick Hamilton, two of our friends from the SF Mycological Society went. But I can put you in contact with Patrick if you email me through the board. Both are dealing with the fallout from the Sonoma fires, so you may not hear back.
 
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by Cole Kendall:
Like the Professor, I cook with corked wine. I am not sure of the chemistry involved but I believe that once the wine is heated over a certain temperature you can no longer detect the corkiness.
Click to expand...

I have always shied away from doing that because I know that TCA boils at such a ridiculously high temperature (251°C). It may be reacting and thereby losing its olfactory effects, but TCA is a pretty unreactive species. The nose knows, though, as they say.

Mark Lipton
Click to expand...

I cannot speak to the exact impact of heat but in the dish the wines end up tasting good. The stews that I cook see far less than 251 C. But perhaps there is something else going on.
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
originally posted by mark e:
Both are dealing with the fallout from the Sonoma fires, so you may not hear back.
Click to expand...
Bumper crop of morels to be expected?
Click to expand...

Probably not. You'd go to much higher elevations in the Sierras. But you have the burn part right.
 
originally posted by Cole Kendall:
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by Cole Kendall:
Like the Professor, I cook with corked wine. I am not sure of the chemistry involved but I believe that once the wine is heated over a certain temperature you can no longer detect the corkiness.
Click to expand...

I have always shied away from doing that because I know that TCA boils at such a ridiculously high temperature (251°C). It may be reacting and thereby losing its olfactory effects, but TCA is a pretty unreactive species. The nose knows, though, as they say.

Mark Lipton
Click to expand...

I cannot speak to the exact impact of heat but in the dish the wines end up tasting good. The stews that I cook see far less than 251 C. But perhaps there is something else going on.
Click to expand...

Ditto to this. As long as the wine comes to a boil first before it simmers, I find it works perfectly well for sautées as well.
 
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
originally posted by mark e:
Both are dealing with the fallout from the Sonoma fires, so you may not hear back.
Click to expand...
Bumper crop of morels to be expected?
Click to expand...

Probably not. You'd go to much higher elevations in the Sierras. But you have the burn part right.
Click to expand...

So much of the mountain northwest saw burns this summer it should be a banner spring crop. The past couple years I've started to wonder about the fire retardants that are dropped in huge swaths on the burns out here though, and whether they are taken up and bio-accumulated in any meaningful quantities by the fungi to merit concern.
 
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